What is the most painless way to get rid of this software?

[Shearer]

I have sat through hours of training, hours of webex and still this piece of junk fails to work.

For us it will be better to walk around to each machine and manually install software and keep ARD for everything else.

The client thinks I’m an idiot for recommending it and I feel like an idiot for recommending it.

Time to cut our losses I think.

[Matt]

Im open to help with any issues as well. I've seen Casper in a lot of environments and have seen the best of the best and the worst of the worst. This sounds to me like something that can be resolved.

[Matt]

Double Damnit!

[mm2270]

I also agree, because almost all situations are salvageable. But it will take Mark and Margaret most of all to have patience and put in some effort, since all any of us can do is make recommendations from afar. The information they provide will be crucial to getting this running they way it was designed to.. From Mark's comments above, it sounds like he, or she, is ready to throw in the towel, which is unfortunate. Hopefully they can work out an agreement to give it a chance.

@donmontalvo siad:

however given the circumstances, maybe he's expecting too much too soon?

That was my thought as well. I think unless you solid experience already with the product, trying to make Casper do everything you need to solve at once is going to lead to frustration. You have to walk before you can run!

[Matt]

Mark if you are reading this, can we all just start over. No harsh feelings just straight to the tech.

Your environment, what you are trying to do, the servers, etc. I am pretty sure the community can get you up and running very quick with the right info. Just to give you an idea... 3 years into Casper and our environment is still getting better everyday. Its a process. People forget Active Directory, SCCM, SMS, and Novell were out a long time. Casper is still relatively "new" in terms of management, and is extremely customizable. You can be a n00b and run Casper but its a good idea to have some background. Thats what we are all here for.

[bajones]

@Matt

What's the issue with former Apple Geniuses? Some of us actually know what we're doing.

[acdesigntech]

IME, most of them are little more than glorified phone monkeys. However the support tech I work with now was an Apple Genius before he started at our company and he's pretty darn good. Picked up packaging very quickly and has a bash scripting ability second only to me ;)

Don't want to speak for him, but I think Matt meant it's the title more than anything that's disturbing because you can be an "Apple Genius" and be anything but...

[Matt]

@bajones - Was a Mac Genius for 5 years. The problem with Mac Geniuses is attitude. Most think they are infact a Genius. Also, in the beginning when I was at Apple Mac Geniuses were in fact computer geniuses that knew everything. Now Mac geniuses reset iPhones for a living. Being a Mac Genius is not what it was prior to 2009 especially when Apple Started "Grow Your Own". At that point every single Creative and Specialist became a Genius and most were lost.

[scottb]

Don't delete the thread please. It's probably the best way to show how great Casper is - the people that use and support one another are incredible. I'm new to CS as well, and the shared resources and quick replies to questions is something that I've never seen anywhere else.

"Jump Start" is not going to take you from the starting line to the finish line - it merely sets you up so the basics are in place. You have to put in the time and effort to learn it all. I'm just past the starting blocks, but I learn more every day. You don't even have to be a Script-Fu God to use the scripting and Extensions Attributes that are shared here, but it certainly would help.

I know I wanted to do it all as soon as I got back from our "Jump Start". I was quickly humbled and have spent every day and night trying and reading and learning. Still just crawling, but at least I'm crawling forward.

If you're real and not a troll, look at the amount of help offered up here - by some amazingly smart people, and for NOTHING. I'd wager the cost per hour of the brain-trust here is pretty steep. Think about it. A year from now, you could offer up Casper to new clients and actually know what you're doing - and help others.

[Matt]

When I started using Casper I couldnt even type in hostname into terminal. That was 3 years ago. Now I write scripts to save million dollar projects. This is not only a community for Casper but a community for Mac admins... period.

[AndyBeaver]

Could not agree more. Hands down the smartest and most generous Mac admin forum.

@ donmontalvo wrote

he can't say JAMF Nation isn't the best community in the Mac management business. :)

[Chris_Hafner]

+1 for best JAMF supporting thread ever. I hope IT managers stumble across this and actually read it.

P.S. I'm actually horrified to think of the overall cost of this thread in $/hr. Then again, it's another reason to get onboard if you're not already ;-) Free IT support starting at tier 3-4

[Kevin]

Of course "Margaret wants to bin it and start litigation to recover their funds". She is a lawyer… the answer to every question is "lawsuit."

However, the target of that litigation should be Mark, not JAMF. There is nothing wrong with the software, just the guy who claimed to be enough of an expert to sell his services administering it.

Mark should have gone to a CCA class before selling his services as a JAMF admin.

[Matt]

@Chris_Hafner - 1 BILLION DOLLARS!!!!!

[Chris_Hafner]

@Matt... careful that could be evidence ;-)

[mm2270]

Heh :) If nothing else we need to congratulate Mark for creating one of the fastest growing threads in JAMFNation's history. Incredible how many responses this has generated in one day, and I don't see it slowing down yet!

I suppose it is an excellent testiment to just how much we all believe in the product and company, and how much folks here are willing to go out of their way to help someone with the Casper Suite or even just with Mac administration in general. Possibly to the detriment of their own duties.

Now get back to work all of you!! :-D

[Matt]

We are working. We are watching Casper do our jobs :D

[donmontalvo]

@Matt wrote:

We are working. We are watching Casper do our jobs :D

Best. Post. Yet. :)

[bajones]

@mm2270

If anything, Mark has given the JAMF Nation site admins a reason to implement multiple pages for threads. (That is, unless there is already a way to enable that feature that I don't know about)

[Shearer]

“Of course "Margaret wants to bin it and start litigation to recover their funds". She is a lawyer… the answer to every question is "lawsuit."

However, the target of that litigation should be Mark, not JAMF. There is nothing wrong with the software, just the guy who claimed to be enough of an expert to sell his services administering it.

Mark should have gone to a CCA class before selling his services as a JAMF admin.“

Um I didn’t ever sell my services as a “JAMF admin”.

I have managed the client‘s network for 13 years now and we have grown from using FileWave and Radar to ARD.

We used to run a maintenance day once per month where I’d come in on a Sunday and using ARD and visiting machines apply any updates required.

This worked but was clunky and we both wanted a better use for my time.

In addition, the firm is starting to acquire iOS devices and we wanted to get a product that could bundle the support issues and save me using lots of time adding printer X to machine Y (the self service option looked ideal for that) or tracking software licensing. Further because I go there one day a week we wanted things like Office updates, etc. to run in the background so users didn’t get 6 days of “update” prompts before my next visit.

We spoke to other users / reference sites, we did the demo, we bought all the hardware/software as required. We spent more money setting up the network for this to work externally as well.

I also spoke to JAMF certified people who said this was the way to go.

I personally started at a low base and attended the JumpStart with another staff member because we were required to send two (not suggested, required). That second person was meant to do the minor stuff on the days I wasn’t in there.

It rapidly became apparent that the second person was lost and I watched her eyes glaze over.

We ran test profiles/packages and they seemed to work in simple terms (send a package from server to one machine).

Yes there is a learning curve above/beyond JumpStart and I invested a bunch of time going through the documentation.

However it rapidly became apparent that the suite wasn’t working well for us (if you have it running at your place good on you) and we started to spend time using the support mechanisms that are part of the product.

To date this has resulting in about 4 days (on and off) of WEB EXs where we tried to work the problem. To date we have a host or remaining outstanding issues (see above).

Again while thankful for the offer, I intend to force the system to work and get the people JAMF pays to provide support to do so (rather than divert you from what you are paid to do).

This post has been successful in that regard in that I have received some official correspondence from JAMF Customer Service offering to escalate the problem (not an offer on the table earlier, despite requests).

I’m sure the software works for most people, hence its reputation, hence why I told Margaret it was a good purchase.

Ideally this is “just” transition pain but to date we have spent several thousands of dollars in my time sitting on WEB EXs and messing with this for very limited return (and not fixing other issues).

Currently I have very little faith in the product but hope to be persuaded otherwise by JAMF.

For those who provided constructive feedback, thanks.

IF we retain the product I’ll know where to come for “informal support“ in the future.

[donmontalvo]

@Shearer wrote:

Um I didn’t ever sell my services as a “JAMF admin”. I have managed the client‘s network for 13 years now and we have grown from using FileWave and Radar to ARD

Casper isn't going to run itself; who did you intend to drive it? :) Might consider farming out the Casper stuff at least until you and your colleague are up to speed. In any case welcome to the community and good luck with your project.

[Shearer]

No I’m aware its not that good. :)

I took “kevin’s” comment to imply that I represented myself to the client as someone fully up to speed on JAMF and basing my recommendation to buy on that.

The following couple of paragraphs go on to describe the environment we had “pre JAMF” and reasons why we thought JAMF might be good for us.

If the product requires someone to by JAMF certified and a professional “JAMF admin” before you even buy it then that probably explains our issue.

[donmontalvo]

@Shearer wrote:

If the product requires someone to by JAMF certified and a professional “JAMF admin” before you even buy it then that probably explains our issue.

Well, it's a framework, maybe not as complicated as FileWave/RadMind, but still requires time to master. This is why it's been suggested to transition into it, a piece at a time, until you're there. :)

[chris_kemp]

It's not required to be a CCA before using the suite. As I mentioned before, it's actually a bad idea to take CCA without some practical experience, because you will quickly "glaze over".

I got thrown into the deep end when I started, more or less - thankfully, we were in a pre-deployment testing phase with the rest of our system, but I still had to get test machines up & running. Like I said before, it takes trial and error, as well as some troubleshooting skills.

As others have pointed out, not all of the issues that arise are JAMF's fault - some companies make lousy installers. Still, we have to deal with them.

I'm glad you're getting some help - fact is, sometimes you have to escalate to the more experienced people. I myself have gone there a couple of times, but JAMF has always gotten things sorted out and I still think it's a great system. (And anyway, show me a single software program more complicated than "Hello, World!" that doesn't have a bug here or there...)

Let me encourage you, if you haven't already, to enumerate your issues clearly & separately, so that you can present them to Support effectively. Being one of those people that says "It's all broken!" is just going to make it harder for them to fix things. Note specific errors and behaviors, look for any common threads (i.e. all Adobe stuff fails) and present them with as much useful info as you can. And, if you don't think they are getting it then don't get mad, just ask for someone else to assist.

[technicholas]

I would never get rid of Casper on our machines! I am still trying to get all my devices enrolled in Casper so I can manage them!

[ernstcs]

Well, someone made sure I knew this post was going on and was shocked I hadn't posted anything to it. I can't be left out of the party. So many good comments back already that I don't really have much to say, and no one might care anyway if I did. =D

- Anyone on here knocking other people really just needs to stop themselves and be helpful and constructive instead of a distraction to a fellow community member's needs. I'm somewhat impressed though, past abusers are being amazingly supportive! The kids are growing up so fast!

- I wouldn't really post any other help posts to this thread and echo what others have said that you need to break out your issues into separate threads (perhaps you have), do some searching perhaps. People really do want to help, but you have to make it possible for them to do that in a manageable fashion.

- Everyone knows that "I Love Me Some JAMF Software." Hell, I was practically born with it. However, I've never recommended anyone under 100 Macs, let alone 50, use the suite (Sorry JAMF). I still think you can save lots of time and effort with 50 systems, but that only pays off if you already have experience with the suite because you can't get the same ROI compared to say I'm dealing with 1000 Macs because of the learning curve. No idiot off the street (not saying you are based on my previous point I will follow), but it takes time to learn this system and there are always going to be nuances that experience helps you traverse quickly. I don't care how long you've been down with Macs. You'll have to pry The Casper Suite out of my cold dead hands.

- Shearer, welcome to The Nation and the JAMF Family! Your best support resource for The Casper Suite. How may we help you? (See separate posts comment above)

- Bacon

[garryfresh]

Hey Shearer (et al),

If (shearer) you're in the So Cal area, hit me up. I be happy to help you sort things out. I read through the 1st 3rd of this (after boettchs sent me the thread to review), then my eyes glazed over.

It wouldn't take much to salvage your project and the situation you're in, and once we're done, I think you'll appreciate what the framework will do for you and your client/employer.

To all the others offering support. Very impressive responses. I definitely learned a lot from all of you. Kill'em with kindness, as they say...

Shearer - Let me know if you're interested. We'll find a way to connect.

BTW - it is not the product.

Garry Fresh

[chris_kemp]

If Don is correct (I must admit, I Googled her myself) then they're in Sydney, Australia.

[evanmellichampe]

What is your network configuration/bandwidth? Are you using any internal firewalls? Does every device have a dedicated connection or are some sharing the same port via mini-switch perhaps? How much of your traffic is wireless and do WiFi connections have any correlation with failure rate? Do you have your server(s) configured to provide SUS or is your JSS configured to direct machines to update from Apple?

You had mentioned in one of your posts that a policy completes successfully on four test machines, but then fails on a single production machine. If these devices are configured identically, how might your test environment be different than production in terms of your network?

Historically, most of our package deployment issues have been attributed to network saturation, port configurations, etc. We rarely use Recon or Remote and most everything we do follows a process of capturing/creating the install using Composer, uploading it using Admin and then deploying it via policy in the JSS or through the Imaging app. It's also rare that we ever host an installer that's been downloaded directly from a software vendor.

As a testament to Casper, we have been using it to support an environment of over 19,000 computers that vary in OS from 10.5 to 10.8 for several years now. Our JSS and distribution points are housed at a data center that connects to 85 separate sites via fiber. It's not always flawless, but when we run into trouble it's usually something we did (or left undone) that caused the problem.

Managing this yourself can be trying, regardless of the number of users/machines you support. We all post and read the threads here regularly in order to help one another navigate the trials of having to constantly adjust to the changes that Apple, Microsoft, Adobe and Oracle present us with, oftentimes without any warning whatsoever.

If your goal is to be successful with Casper, the people here can help. My organization can attest to that 100 times over. If not, sudo jamf removeFramework is the way out. ARD hasn't seen a major version upgrade in over 5 years and the primary reasoning for that is that Apple clearly sees that companies like JAMF are responding to the needs of enterprise management more effectively.

[Kevin]

Taking the CCA course before implementation is not a requirement and probably a bad idea. The framework is robust and the course could overwhelm someone with little time in the console.

My employer pays me to learn about new technology (both through training and on the job)) and implement things like the Casper Suite and learn as we go. They expect that.

I sell my services to companies outside of my "day job" employer as well. I would NEVER sell my services to admin a system that I was not proficient with. Those clients do not pay me to "learn as I go" but to be an expert when I arrive.

RE:"Again while thankful for the offer, I intend to force the system to work and get the people JAMF pays to provide support to do so (rather than divert you from what you are paid to do)."

This statement represents an attitude that is not going to help you much… You are getting offers of assistance from around the world-literally, but you intend to "force" someone to do something. Everyone I have met or talked to at JAMF over my past 5+ years using Casper had as good or better customer service ethic as ANY Vendor I have ever dealt with. I have never had to think about forcing them to do anything. JAMF is the GOLD standard by which I judge all other vendors and I have told several as much.

Don stated:"Well, it's a framework, maybe not as complicated as FileWave/RadMind, but still requires time to master. This is why it's been suggested to transition into it, a piece at a time, until you're there. :)"

Perfectly stated.

Selling someone on a framework that you had NOT mastered is not JAMF's fault and despite their awesome support, they can't build and run your JSS (or repair a poorly set up system) from Minneapolis.

[JPDyson]

At my last job, roughly 500 Macs were being managed by a guy with nothing more than ARD. After months of working proposals and, well, begging to be perfectly honest, he got the customer to buy the Casper Suite. He did jumpstart, he did CCA, and he put in work. He set up a pair of Xserves doing internal and external management, and we already had one doing SUS. After a few months, Macs had the lowest number of security vulnerabilities by a factor of 10, in an environment where Flash and Java were requirements. Patching and updates were seamless - all you had to do was update the packages and the smart groups about once a month. He handed the reigns to me (a guy who was hired for Windows support 5 years prior, and had less than two years of Mac support background), having never used Casper. I took the CCA (and CMA because mobile was spinning up) and I refined what he had built, improved the imaging workflow, and drove vulnerabilities down further for 9 months. We took iOS management into production as well.

In December (again, with 9 months at the helm of a Casper shop) I started a new job at a company trying to get a handle on managing Macs. The previous admin had blazed a trail (infrastructure, imaging, a few policies) but the management processes were all basically undefined (post-image management was not structured at all). We have all Windows-based servers; two web-app servers, a MySQL master and slave, a NetBoot/SUS appliance, not to mention the development environment, DFS shares all over the dang planet - it's a big-boy Enterprise environment. Our largely executive customer base in the financial industry (with a smattering of designer/developer types) was another complicating factor. I've stepped up my game, read the friggin manual (not just on the JSS, but on the underlying technologies throughout the infrastructure), posted my struggles here, and most importantly I've put in work. We're taking huge strides toward automated management and lowering support cost, and the customer can see it.

By the by, speaking of this community, if I've never said it: Rich (rtrouton), Matt (mm270), Jared (jarednichols) - I love you guys for the knowledge sharing and help over the last two years, and I'd give you the shirt off my back. But let's agree that's bad for everybody and settle for a beer.

All of this to say: Put. In. Work. You'll get value back. Or, you can quit. But stop blaming JAMF and the Casper Suite, because we're here to tell you it's not the problem.

[mattias]

Dear Shearer;

I understand you totally. Casper was brought to me against my will administrating 150 Macs in a blue chip company. I thought it extremely time consuming to try and set it up, try CS 5.5 to image and deploy and try to get the general understanding of this software on 2 servers WHILE trying to maintain ordinary daily maintenance. Steve Jobs once said about the USB port that "When you set a standard, you embrace it 100%, otherwise you might as well not care about it at all".

You will probably get as many answers as there are members here, but i honestly do understand you. I did not even see the point why we should implement Casper in our office in Gothenburg on 30 Macs. I was angry and irritated that top management was consuming MY time on how i should help my customers. Doing it in Gothenburg was wrong. Doing it in Stockholm was right. For me being slow and efficient, it took a very long time to learn Casper, and because i failed the first time i took the course, i beat myself down very hard. How could i who worked so bloody hard to make it work fail so miserably? I passed in Amsterdam more than half a year later with 24 out of 25 questions correct and it is my proudest IT moment ever. I worked really hard for it and paid myself for everything on second attempt.

However; Casper is very timeconsuming, and i bet a lot of people on Jamfnation keep it as a wet dream to be able to spend time with Casper 100% as it develops and demands a lot of attention and interest. Like any partner. I dont think that you recommended a "bad" solution to your client. I think you (and many many others on Jamf nation) underestimated how long time it is going to take to master this software. But when you sit on a train on 3G and VPN in with the ipad to activate a policy that installs CS 6... Oh dear, closer to God as an IT manager you will not get!

I thank you for a welcome and inspiring thread on the nation. I know what you mean. I did not want the 'bastard' but my choice was to embrace it and take care of it, because noone else wanted it either. I think i am like one out of ten CCAs in Scandinavia now? I dont know, but it is a great product and a great community. I hope you change your mind!!

Kind Regards;

Mattias

[RobertHammen]

Mark - I've always wanted to visit Australia (I own three Holdens). Buy me a round-trip plane ticket from Chicago and I'll happily give you 5 days of my time and get your Casper environment to sing ;-). I've performed JumpStarts and managed Casper environments from as small as 20 people to as large as a Fortune 50 worldwide company. I'm sure I could get you running...

I have a particular client with 80 Macs that I used to manage their environment using ARD for the past year plus. Took them to Casper in May and their Windows admins are absolutely ecstatic. Biggest pain point for me with ARD is its unreliability (Task Server = no guarantee that installs/commands will ever run). With Casper policies and Smart Groups, I am certain that things have run. Client is super, super happy with Casper as an "ARD replacement".

Re: Flash Player, use Composer and the pre-build template (which I contributed ;-). You've been given good advice about running Microsoft and Adobe updates at login or logout.

[Matt]

@mattias - Running a PKG on OSX Server or an MSI on Windows 2008R2, giving it a DNS name, and a DP point is hard? Like I said before it sounds like some people just get in over their heads and start venting. Nobody here is having a "wet" dream. We are having "wet" realities. Not only that we are all offering help and we are getting nothing but it doesn't work. We get that, we are trying to help. No need to bad mouth JAMF or insinuate things. Its also very dangerous to put something like Casper in a Live environment without doing extensive POC's and testing. We had Casper for over 6 months before it went live. We got things setup, I got my CCA/CMA, and then we slowly went live. Then it was 75 computers and 2 Macs techs plus me a Desktop Engineer. Now I have 850 Macs, 250 iPads, live Broadcast Edit Bays, all running Casper being managed by one person... me.

[mattias]

@Matt

You misunderstand me. It took me a good deal of time to become "good" at it, and it will take a long time to master, if ever. I love Casper today and i miss not working with it anymore. But yes, for me it was very hard to just get these directives in my knee and start doing it myself. I am glad i went through purgatory to try and learn it, but i do understand original poster. It is not for everybody. English is not my native language so i apologize if it went over peoples heads. You say "we", which indicates you were not alone. I was. It was hard. Experience. A brutal teacher but one does learn.

[Matt]

I was alone, Im the only Mac person for over 5000 employees. When I say we I am referring to my Company. I had techs who learned how to use it for tech support but setup, maintenance , learning, etc its all me. I wish it wasn't but thats just how things are here. We are 24 hours a day with Broadcast, it just goes to show a well setup Casper system can replace people (whether that be good or bad.) I had a lot of help from JAMF people like Miles, Tim, and Rachel before she moved up were amazing. Me and Tim had worked on some issues that were extremely strange and had us scratching our heads but everyone at JAMF always ends up helping us out, usually without a penny being spent. No other company offers this support. Plus if you meet them all, you learn, they are one of us. JAMF is a Mac Admin advocate.

[mattias]

In my opinion, being a Casper Admin is a full time job. Management and finance at my old place would not agree and perhaps many others neither. It takes time to learn although some people are fast and smart and eager to educate others. Not a lot of people could manage 1100 units as you do. Be proud!

[Matt]

A lot of us here though are in similar situations. Macs just aren't "real computers" quite yet. They are getting there! For example we now include Macs in our PC refreshes and our PCs went from 5000 down to 4600 and our Macs 75 - 800+ in less than 2 years. Once HR and IT realizes that Macs are players then things will be a lot easier. My whole point though Mattias is JAMF Nation is your team, we are your colleagues, and we will all help you. Dont be shy we don't bite like the Apple Mailing List!

[donmontalvo]

@Matt wrote:

Macs just aren't "real computers" quite yet.

That's changing very quickly, as half of JAMF Software's dynamic duo recently tweeted...

http://tinyurl.com/lnttlvu

external image link

[dmw3]

Shearer, if you need help let us know, at least we are the same time zone.

I am occasionally in Sydney so maybe also able to catch up.

[londonbg]

Does anyone know how this story ended?!

It appears to have been a 3 year cliff-hanger..!