Vendor suggesting we buy Lion Macs and "roll back" to Snow Leopard [WTF?!]

[donmontalvo]

We just got a call from our procurement team. They said our third party vendor (Mac reseller who we will not name here) claims Apple told them they can "roll back" Macs that ship with Lion.

Of course Apple explicitly states roll back is NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUPPORTED:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2186

We have scheduled a call with our procurement manager and the third party vendor so we can get confirmation that this was suggested to them by Apple. I highly doubt it but if so I want it in writing. Then we can formerly pose the question to Apple.

Something is fishy and I'm concerned that any of our vendors would make such a claim and not stand behind it. If this turns out to be a farce we will deal with the vendor.

In the mean time, I wanted to check with the list members to see if their vendors are making similar claims/suggestions?

Thanks,
Don

[mimmordino]

I was told the same thing by the Mac Rep from the reseller we work with. Works fine for us as long as you wipe the drive first.

[golbiga]

You can roll back all but the Mac Mini and MacBook Air. Maybe that's what they meant?

Allen

[hasaanh]

I just rolled back to 10.6.8 on a just received macbookpro that shipped with
10.7 loaded, was able to roll back fine, functionality and system logs all
look normal. But I know the macbookpro's have not underwent a hardware
change, I don't know if this tactic will work on the new Macbook Airs and
Mac mini's.

-- Hasaan Herrington
Technical Support II
Information Technology
Anchorage School District
1602 Hillcrest Drive, Anchorage, Alaska, 99517.
Help Desk: (907) 742-4615

[Matt]

… and this won't destroy our support?

--
Matt Lee, CCA/ACMT/ACPT/ACDT
Senior IT Analyst / Desktop Architecture Team / Apple S.M.E / JAMF Casper Administrator
Fox Networks Group

[rtrouton]

That's what I'm thinking as well. We're re-imaging our iMacs, Mac Pros and MacBook Pros with 10.6.8 as they come in, as those models originally shipped with 10.6.x instead of 10.7.x.

We are discouraging the purchase of Mac Minis and Airs at this time, as we know 10.6.8 won't run on those models.

Thanks,
Rich

[donmontalvo]

Interesting, did your reseller say Apple is will support rolling back?

Thanks,
Don

[donmontalvo]

Hi Allen,

By "You can roll back", did your reseller (or Apple) state this is supported?

Thanks,
Don

[donmontalvo]

Hi Hasaan,

The concern here is what is and what is not supported. Did your reseller and/or Apple say this is supported?

Thanks,
Don

[donmontalvo]

...nail hit squarely on head. :)

Don

[mimmordino]

No, I didn't ask specifically, it came up when I was asking if they could request the machines be loaded with 10.6.8 (boy did that get a laugh). Regardless of if it works or not, I can't imagine Apple ever admitting it was OK to rollback - they want everyone to upgrade to the newest, brightest, etc.. version.

[dderusha]

I thought you didn’t like apple support :)

Here is what our rep said in writing.........

Hi Dan,

New hardware (MacBook Airs, Mac Minis) are Lion-only. Since the other product lines haven't changed (MacBook Pros, iMacs, Mac Pros), things should work the same as before Lion. However, Apple does not support down-revving to a previous OS, so for any hardware that ships with Lion, Apple will support Lion (and later OSes) on that hardware.

Do you need to deploy new MacBook Airs to users? Is there an option to use the previous generation MBAs? Tena or your reseller can probably work with you to secure inventory of the previous generation model, but you should act quickly, since we generally keep inventory pipelines pretty lean.

Thanks,

--xxxx

xxxx
System Engineer, Apple Enterprise Sales

Dan De Rusha

[mimmordino]

When you say "not supported" are you referring to tech support on the machines or the fact that Apple just won't condone rolling back?

We get very little from Apple in terms of tech support, and 10.6.8 is pretty stable for us, so we're not concerned with lack of tech support. Besides, that's what recovery disks are for. :)

[tlarkin]

We buy from Apple direct and they said 10.7 machines cannot run 10.6. It also means zero support. If you can get it to work great, if
anything glitches or breaks you are on your own.

YMMV

-Tom

[mimmordino]

We get far more help from forums like these or the net then Apple support anyway. Lion has major issues for us, and purchasing dozens of extra laptops before the Lion release wasn’t an option, so we don’t have a lot of choices.

Unless you’re talking about the Minis or the Airs, the hardware is exactly the same, so Apple saying a 10.7 cannot run 10.6 is bunk.

Friends don’t let friends drink the Apple Kool-Aid.

[donmontalvo]

Hi Dan,

Yes, we raised flags about six weeks ago, and our procurement team have secured enough "Snow Leopard" Macs to tie us over for the next 60-90 days (total number is based on known refreshes scheduled; plus a buffer for any replacements for failures, new employees, etc.).

Your System Engineer response was spot on. I wondered if the hardware didn't change, would it be safe to roll back. But since Apple is no longer providing install media, there won't be a "bundled" (or as Steve says a "drop in box") installer disc.

There is also the question of whether any firmware updates were added to the hardware (boards, drives, etc.) that would created tendencies and risk that may not be obvious up front.

In any case, if we roll back and there are any issues, we end up eating the cost of the increased support...a position we can't allow ourselves to be put in.

Great info...keep it coming...

Thanks,
Don

[talkingmoose]

Until Apple refreshes a hardware line then the latest version of the prior
On 8/3/11 3:35 PM, "Don Montalvo" <donmontalvo at gmail.com> wrote:
OS should still work.

Will Apple support this? No.

Will it work? No reason for it not to work.

Software won't damage hardware unless it's a firmware update but you
shouldn't be allowed to install a firmware update that's not supported on
your Mac. At worst, you're on your own to support the OS on unsupported
hardware.

You do need to consider licensing. Technically(?), you should have a
purchased Snow Leopard license for your Lion machine. You'll never get a
straight answer from an Apple rep about that, however, so do what you feel
you need to do.

--

William Smith
Technical Analyst
Merrill Communications LLC
(651) 632-1492

[nessts]

if you own a volume license of 10.6 you can back grade and still get support and that was from Apple reps yesterday.

--
Todd Ness
Technology Consultant/Non-Windows Services
Americas Regional Delivery Engineering
HP Enterprise Services

[tlarkin]

That conflicts with what our Apple reps told us and we have paid
Enterprise Support.

[Janowski]

One time... just one time we rolled a machine back. Similar scenario, but when snow leopard came out. Hardware hadn't changed so we forced it over, back to Leopard.

We will never be doing that again. It was not worth all the trouble.

I think some people have said as much, but if you're interested in reading the KB from Apple, you can check it out here.

ben janowski
Senior Macintosh Support Technician
Kohl's Mac Support Team
262.703.1396 | benjamin.janowski at kohls.com

[donmontalvo]

Same here...but to be fair, sometimes we get slightly different responses depending on which Apple engineer we speak to. :)

For us, there is risk and liability whenever anything unsupported is deployed. Not just troubleshooting costs, but liability on the "unnecessary downtime for our clients" side.

Don

[taugust04]

Downgrading was mentioned by our Apple sales reps as being 'allowed' as well, as long as you follow the guidelines in this Knowledge Base Article:

Mac OS X versions (builds) for computers
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1159

I will be downgrading all hardware that I recently purchased from Apple, especially considering our P.O. was being processed as Lion was being released. YMMV on what type of support you get from Apple regarding this. No Airs were purchased, and the Mac Mini we ordered was the old model, so, I don't think I have anything to be worried about.

I've already downgraded one iMac and one MacBook Pro for testing with our image and haven't seen any issues so far, nor would I expect to considering if I had purchased these same computers one week earlier they would have come with Snow Leopard installed.

-- Ted August
Salve Regina University

[donmontalvo]

Yep, we had a conf call with Apple engineers yesterday about this. Their position was "not supported" but they did say it's possible to downgrade if the hardware did not get changed. The problem for us is we have no guarantee from Apple or the vendor, that the hardware is 100% the same (ie: do the "same hardware" Macs have updated firmware, etc.?). Shortly after our call KB HT1159 was updated. I checked again this morning...just to be sure...Apple still does not support downgrading hardware. I guess it boils down to accountability...since Apple sticks to their "not supported" position and now our vendor is saying they "can't guarantee it'll work", ultimately the tech(s) who do any roll back are accountable. So my position is "opposed but will do if client insists as long as escalations are charged back".

Don

[Matt]

Thanks for the leg work Don. Looks like we won't be downgrading :'(

--
Matt Lee, CCA/ACMT/ACPT/ACDT
Senior IT Analyst / Desktop Architecture Team / Apple S.M.E / JAMF Casper Administrator
Fox Networks Group

[tlarkin]

You still need to own the SL license. New machines don't ship with a free SL downgrade. Also, it is not officially support so if you have any issues at all, Apple will not support until you load 10.7 on it.

I downgraded some 10.6 iMacs to 10.5.8 a few years back, and for the most part it worked. However, some thing did change. I think the Airport card had issues and it was actually a different revision of the wireless card in previous models, even though the other hardware did not change. I also think the temperature sensor for the HD also was different and downgrading screwed it up too.

Overall, the machine was functional and we deployed it as is, but there were definitely some things that did not quite work right when rolling back. Like I said previously, it is not support, not recommended, you don't get a free license for it, and you gotta support it yourself. Your mileage may vary, and yes it does and can work. I have done it. So, you just have to test it out and make a choice.

-Tom

[donmontalvo]

Here's how we walked away from our conference call...

#1. Apple does not support or recommend...er...you guys already knew that.

#2. Our vendor knows this but their hands are tied.

#3. Macs that *originally* shipped with 10.6 and are *later* shipping with 10.7 and have *not* been revised can be down graded to 10.6.

#4. Macs that *originally* shipped with 10.7 (HW revisions) can *not* be down graded.

#5. GSX is key.

You're right...there is the licensing issue. Well to be frank there is the law and there is the spirit of the law. If Apple ever went after a company for downgrading, they would be in for a rude awakening. But maybe that needs to happen for Apple to WTFU and adjust their EULA and KB articles and put these ridiculous logistical issues to rest. Classic example of a *LARGE* company with tip tier management who have their heads stuck their...er...you know where I'm going with this...

PS, no reflection on the fine Apple Engineers and Reps...they've got their hands tied.

Don

[tlarkin]

Yeah I agree with you, but when I did downgrade our iMacs 2 years ago, there were some features that did change. Maybe in the firmware, maybe in the micro hardware level, but there are some things to consider. I cannot recall what didn't work right, but it was minor for us. Also, if I compiled a 10.5.8 image on a 10.6 machine it would kernel panic at boot if I tried to use the image. This is because the installers were different and loaded different drivers for the hardware. So, if you do roll back you must keep a machine of the same OS to do compiles because I am going to assume that the same issue will happen if you try to compile a 10.6 image on a 10.7 machine.

So, you can downgrade, and I did it and it did work and the machine was about 98% functional. However, we also had the licenses for both OSes at the time too. Apple is a company I could actually see suing a school or business over licensing, they have done it before over other ridiculous things.

-Tom

[noah_swanson]

We did this with the 10.5-10.6 transition. Since 90% of our Macs are laptops, there were a few 15" MacBook Pro's that did not install the keyboard backlight correctly. Luckily we only deployed about 3 during this time (all of which we've brought up to 10.6 since then). Haven't had to do downgrade a 10.7 machine yet, but I'm more than assuming we'll have to very soon.
--Noah

[donmontalvo]

Did you create your image using the Combo Updater? If so all the drivers would/should have been in the image.
Swanson Noah <SwansonNoah at JohnDeere.com> wrote:

These kinds of issues are usually attributed to using a "slim" updater (downloaded or via Software Update).

Don

[noah_swanson]

Yep. always run the combo update. Always...