NetBoot with Thunderbolt/Gigabit adapter?

[donmontalvo]

OK, so I'm sure we won't have a problem booting the new MacBook Pro with Retina Display (MBPRD) using the Thunderbolt/Gigabit adapter.

Will the adapter work with existing MacBook Pro and MacBook Air models?

The spec seems to imply so:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MD463ZM/A#compatibility

Compatibility Mac OS X v10.7.4 or later Thunderbolt-equipped Mac computer

Hoping we can drop-kick these Apple USB/Ethernet adapters... ;)

Anyone try this out yet? Or is it too soon to know?

PS, yes I just ordered one but might not get here for a few weeks...

PS2, and yea, I'm sure we'll need to exclude these in JSS too...

Don

[mm2270 · Accepted solution]

I'm not entirely sure it will just work with pre 2012 Airs. I say this because all of the new Mac models introduced on Monday ship with a specific OS X 10.7.4 build to accommodate them. (yeah... get ready) Those OS builds may also accommodate for the new Thunderbolt 10/100/1000 adapters as well.
Just because it says "10.7.4", doesn't mean its the 10.7.4 you're currently using. Apple has once again forked the OS build with these new puppies, so we're back to that whole rigamarole of maintaining specific OS versions per model until another unified build comes out (10.7.5?) or, for sure Mountain Lion will work on any of these new Macs as well as older ones, provided they meet the requirements.

[gregneagle · Accepted solution]

An EFI firmware update would be required to allow 2011 Thunderbolt MacBook Airs to be able to NetBoot from a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter.

An OS update (or at least a new driver/kernel extension) is required to allow 2011 Thunderbolt MacBook Airs to use a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter while booted into OS X.

These are two different things.

[tlarkin · Accepted solution]

Hey Everyone,

I just wanted to chime in and point out one thing that hasn't been discussed, and so far this has been a very informative thread. While, I have not had any hands on experience with the thunderbolt-to-Ethernet adapters, I have had tons of experience with the USB ones from Apple. Last year, before I worked at JAMF, I was reimaging multiple thousands of MBAs, and we had several hundred USB dongles.

The very first thing I noticed is that imaging a MBA over netboot with my 6 gig base image (basically OS X + office + iLife) it took about 4 hours. Long story short, our switches were not properly detecting the adapters at all, and when a switch cannot detect the adapter speed it defaults to 10baseT half plex. Once I figured that out and manually set the speed of the ports to 100mbit full duplex I could image a system in under 30 minutes. After the base image block copied there were several packages that deployed after.

So, when testing these adapters out, make sure your switches actually recognize the port as being gigabit, since switches are supposed to be smart enough to auto detect port speed.

This totally may or may not be an issue with Thunderbolt adapters, I have no clue. I am simply putting this out here so the first person that gets it working can test if that is an issue or not.

Thanks,
Tom

[mm2270 · Accepted solution]

I'm not entirely sure it will just work with pre 2012 Airs. I say this because all of the new Mac models introduced on Monday ship with a specific OS X 10.7.4 build to accommodate them. (yeah... get ready) Those OS builds may also accommodate for the new Thunderbolt 10/100/1000 adapters as well.
Just because it says "10.7.4", doesn't mean its the 10.7.4 you're currently using. Apple has once again forked the OS build with these new puppies, so we're back to that whole rigamarole of maintaining specific OS versions per model until another unified build comes out (10.7.5?) or, for sure Mountain Lion will work on any of these new Macs as well as older ones, provided they meet the requirements.

[donmontalvo]

@mm2270 Yea, the general "Steve Woods" rule is that the 10.7.4 combo update will boot systems that ship with 10.7.3. Hoping 10.7.5 is released soon.

Hopefully we won't get forked again by Apple. :(

PS, looks like we need to wait for Apple to re-release the Thunderbolt patch...apparently they pulled 1.2 because of all the reported issues.

[gregneagle · Accepted solution]

An EFI firmware update would be required to allow 2011 Thunderbolt MacBook Airs to be able to NetBoot from a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter.

An OS update (or at least a new driver/kernel extension) is required to allow 2011 Thunderbolt MacBook Airs to use a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter while booted into OS X.

These are two different things.

[mm2270]

@Don, what I'm saying is, yes, we're being "forked" by Apple again, at least for a little while. I also hope 10.7.5 is released soon, although given no-one in the developer ranks has even seen a 10.7.5 build yet we may be in a for a long-ish haul. Apple may even decide to forgo another 10.7.x release since Mountain Lion is right around the corner. let's hope not though.

And Greg is right. Just using the new adapters in a normal booted environment and Netbooting from them are two different things and would likely require different updates to enable on the older hardware.

[jhbush]

I can see the dongle on a MBP here at WWDC and the dongle is recognized by the system when a cable is plugged in. It was also recognized by wife's MBA 2011. I don't have a netboot server with me but I'll test this weekend if I have time.

[rtrouton]

jhbush1973,

I've got a 10.6.8 Server VM for VMWare Fusion, if you want to try testing this while you're at WWDC.

Thanks,
Rich

[taugust04]

So what is the best practice for re-imaging a forked build of Lion? In the Snow Leopard days, we could use the included DVD to build a NetInstall set, and then upload it to the NetBoot server. How does one build a Lion NetInstall set on a forked OS X Lion build? If you open up the App Store app on the new MacBook Pro's, are you able to download a Lion installer specific to that forked Mac? Inquiring minds want to know! :-)

I haven't encountered the need to do this yet, but, I'm sure it's going to come up soon...

~Ted

[stevewood]

I'm going to venture to guess that the Lion install that is in the App Store has been updated to a new build that will work with the new hardware. Again, that is just a guess, but seeing as how there are no longer any DIB DVDs, I'd have to assume that is how they are getting the OS to us.

So, if that is the case, all that really needs to happen is to update the build you have in Casper with that new version.

Again, all speculation on my part. I haven't re-downloaded the Lion build out of the App Store yet.

[jarednichols]

I'm going to venture to guess that the Lion install that is in the App Store has been updated to a new build that will work with the new hardware. Again, that is just a guess, but seeing as how there are no longer any DIB DVDs, I'd have to assume that is how they are getting the OS to us.

I'm downloading from AppStore right now. I'll see what it installs as in the morning and report back.

[donmontalvo]

We just created new Base/Restore/NBI images from the latest InstallESD.dmg, it was 10.7.4 (11E53). Anyone at WWDC 2012 who can check the build numbers on those Macs? While you're at it maybe also post the Machine Identifiers (like MacBookPro8,2)?

Don

[jarednichols]

Wonder if it can be obtained by doing an Internet Restore on a new model.

[jarednichols]

I've just dispatched a message to our rep on how we're to obtain install media. We'll see...

[gregneagle]

http://afp548.com/2011/08/11/downloading-hardware-specific-lion-installers/

[donmontalvo]

Dave Castelletti tweeted:

https://twitter.com/davecastelletti/status/213318494228451328

Hardware:

Hardware Overview:

      Model Name: MacBook Pro
      Model Identifier: MacBookPro10,1
      Processor Name: Intel Core i7
      Processor Speed: 2.3 GHz
      Number of Processors: 1
      Total Number of Cores: 4
      L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
      L3 Cache: 6 MB
      Memory: 8 GB
      Boot ROM Version: MBP101.00EE.B00
      SMC Version (system): 2.3f28
      Serial Number (system): ***[removed]***
      Hardware UUID:*** [removed]***

and

Software:

    System Software Overview:

      System Version: Mac OS X 10.7.4 (11E2620)
      Kernel Version: Darwin 11.4.2
      Boot Volume: Macintosh HD
      Boot Mode: Normal
      Computer Name: ars415.25 MacBook Pro Mac Table 5 B2
      User Name: Apple (apple)
      Secure Virtual Memory: Enabled
      64-bit Kernel and Extensions: Yes
      Time since boot: 2:09

[taugust04]

Greg, you rock. That was exactly the answer I was looking for. I clearly need to do a better job using the search feature in Google Reader, as I do have the afp548.com feed in there.

~Ted

[jarednichols]

+1 Greg. Nice find.

[donmontalvo]

OK so DMG vs DIB DVD...but sounds like the concept is the same. Assuming the new MBPRD and MBA models do come with 10.7.4 (higher build number than we have now), we must wait for /Applications/Install Mac OS X Lion.app to be updated to 10.7.5 so we can create our agnostic Base/Restore/NBI images. Or for those who want to update their existing image, wait for the 10.7.5 combo updater? Very useful info, thanks Greg!

[gregneagle]

Or move to a thin imaging workflow so it's not so important to update deployment images.

[donmontalvo]

@gregneagle Unfortunately thin imaging isn't an option for us. I checked the developer site, was surprised there wasn't any 10.7.5 seed. I guess it'll be posted once everyone gets back from WWDC. Hopefully. :)

[mm2270]

I love the concept of thin imaging, and we continue to explore it, but currently it isn't a workable option for us. So maintaining base images for the Macs will be necessary in the short term.
But thanks for the above link. Good information to have on hand when we need to look at this, which is going to be soon.

[jarednichols]

I guess it'll be posted once everyone gets back from WWDC. Hopefully. :)

Apple has 1000 devs at WWDC. I hear IL is a ghost town.

[bmweeks]

i bought a thunderbolt to gigabit. My MacBook Air (13-inch Mid 2011) does not recognize the adapter nor does my MBP early 2011 it does however see it on option boot but when trying to boot about 30 sec in I get a probationary sign on boot up and stays there. i think the thunderbolt 1.2 update that was pulled because of crashing was to fix this.

[davidhiggs]

I have a MacBook Air 4,2 (13-inch Mid 2011) netbooting from a 10.7.4 (11E53) image via the Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter. Here is some info:

Thunderbolt Software Update 1.21 is now available
http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1544

The machine doesn't need a firmware or software update to be able to netboot with the adapter.
Your netboot image needs to have the Thunderbolt update applied, otherwise you'll get the 'no entry' symbol when it does try to boot.

I'm currently running my netboot server on Mac OS X Server 10.7.4 (11E53). My netboot image is 10.7.4 (11E53) with Casper Suite 8.52. Boot and deployment times are fast, as expected over Gigabit. No problems building the machine. Prepare FirstRun Script working as expected. I'll report back if I find any issues, but so far so good!

[tlarkin · Accepted solution]

Hey Everyone,

I just wanted to chime in and point out one thing that hasn't been discussed, and so far this has been a very informative thread. While, I have not had any hands on experience with the thunderbolt-to-Ethernet adapters, I have had tons of experience with the USB ones from Apple. Last year, before I worked at JAMF, I was reimaging multiple thousands of MBAs, and we had several hundred USB dongles.

The very first thing I noticed is that imaging a MBA over netboot with my 6 gig base image (basically OS X + office + iLife) it took about 4 hours. Long story short, our switches were not properly detecting the adapters at all, and when a switch cannot detect the adapter speed it defaults to 10baseT half plex. Once I figured that out and manually set the speed of the ports to 100mbit full duplex I could image a system in under 30 minutes. After the base image block copied there were several packages that deployed after.

So, when testing these adapters out, make sure your switches actually recognize the port as being gigabit, since switches are supposed to be smart enough to auto detect port speed.

This totally may or may not be an issue with Thunderbolt adapters, I have no clue. I am simply putting this out here so the first person that gets it working can test if that is an issue or not.

Thanks,
Tom

[jarednichols]

Interesting info, Tom. I've actually never seen an issue with the USB Ethernet adapter not being detected at 100BaseT full duplex.

[mm2270]

@davidhiggs-

That's good info, thanks for the testing. But by this:

The machine doesn't need a firmware or software update to be able to netboot with the adapter. Your netboot image needs to have the Thunderbolt update applied...

are you talking about the Thunderbolt Software Update vers 1.2 that Apple yanked due to boot issues some people were experiencing? I don't think they've reposted that update to my knowledge. Just curious, because they had a previous 1.1 update released in March with the same name

[bentoms]

1.2.1 was released June 18th.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/18/apple-releases-thunderbolt-software-update-1-1/

[mm2270]

Whoa! That's really weird. I'm not seeing it on any of my SUS's, not even the NetSUS appliance I have up and running. I wonder why that would be??
Only thing I see from 6/18 is the MacBook Pro (Retina) Trackpad Update.

Thanks for the info ben.

[davidhiggs · Accepted solution]

@tlarkin - Auto-detect on my switch is fine for the Thunderbolt adapter, Full-duplex and 1k speeds. A similar experience with the Thunderbolt Display. Both using the PCI bus, seems to be pretty rock solid.

Can't say the same for my USB Ethernet adapter, it only ever connected at Half-duplex 100 speeds on my switch in auto mode. From the reports I see, it should be capable of full-duplex.

@mm2270 - My SUS isn't showing it either. Might be included in 10.7.5 when it comes out, and a manual install for now.

FYI
v1.2 wasn't a problem for my MacBook Pro 8,2. I had a chance to play with it and found the behaviour when plugging in the adapter is different.
Under 1.2, it would drop my Thunderbolt Display NIC, then reconnect it along with the Thunderbolt Ethernet Adapter. Under 1.21, I can insert and remove the Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter without it affecting my Display Thunderbolt NIC.

[tlarkin]

Our switches were heavily managed, and that is what I suspect was part of the problem. I just remember several of our switches not auto detecting speed properly and it defaults to 10baseT. Due to the time crunch I was in, I never actually figure out why. I just fixed it by doing what I did and moved on. I did find a few online discussion of people having similar issues. The switches were older Cisco ones, could totally be a legacy firmware IOS thing that doesn't recognize USB adapters since some of our switches were old.

[donmontalvo]

This is why I've always carried a Fluke Linkrunner (up to 100) or Fluke Linkrunner Pro (up to 1000). Take a second to see how the port is set up. All too often the switch port was found to be locked to half, or locked to 10 or 100 when 1000 was possible, this, with the network folks saying "the ports are fine, nothing wrong with them".

Time to upgrade, amazingly at a few hundred less than the above...

http://www.flukenetworks.com/enterprise-network/network-testing/LinkRunner-AT-Network-Auto-Tester

[tlarkin]

Yeah I am not sure what the issue was. However, if I had to make a guess I would put my money on the fact it didn't know how to properly detect a USB adapter, and when detection fails it defaults to the slowest speed possible. I know on newer switches this is not really a problem, or at least so I have read on the Internet that is the case.

Good idea to carry around a tool to test the port that is independent of any computer or OS. That will eliminate a lot of possibilities really fast.

Thanks,
Tom

[bentoms]

Holy thread resurrection BatMan!! https://jamfnation.jamfsoftware.com/discussion.html?id=2910

But yes, i've seen it too with USB Ethernet Adaptors with some belikin & netgear routers.