Old OS on new hardware, New OS on Old hardware, anyone?

[#1]

All,

I need to install Leopard, on some newer iMac’s, that have Snow Leopard shipped on them. Does anyone know if I create an install image from Disk with InstaDMG, or with Casper, if the information that checks the hardware is stripped out, or ignored? Or what I would need to do to get leopard on the iMac’s? Our Place here isn’t ready to go to Snow Leopard yet, some of the key applications our clients use aren’t compatible so this is just a temporary work around.

Sean Gallagher
267-426-2607

[milesleacy]

Lance,

That's a great point. I had done some testing with Aqua Connect in the past, and it seemed promising. It uses Microsoft's RDP protocol and client, so in addition to providing Mac apps to Mac users who can't run them locally, you can provide Mac apps to Windows users. This is great for anyone who wants to deploy Casper Remote to helpdesk staff who only use Windows.

On another related note... When directed to simply "make it work" where "making it work" is infeasible or problematic, I feel that it is the job of the IT staffer/administrator to be honest about what is possible, what is supportable, and what the potential issues involved in any decision may be.

For those who find themselves directed to do things that they know are bad ideas even after explaining why the thing in question shouldn't be done, I recommend the following... Politely and factually explain to whomever was giving this direction exactly why it's a bad idea. If they still insist on doing the "wrong" thing, make sure that you have at least an email trail of this person acknowledging the risks yet demanding the action anyway, and preferably get a signed piece of paper to that effect.

Never agree to do something that you know is bad without covering yourself for if and when it all goes bust.

To Tom...
It's great, if uncharacteristic, of your Apple contact to give you detailed technical info on how the OS interacts with the hardware. My concern, however, would be for what happens if a problem does occur. I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that Applecare, Apple Store, and Apple authorized repair employees are probably going to simply be aware of the "official" line, being that the hardware doesn't support an OS earlier than the one it shipped with. Is the person who gave you this info going to personally deal with any issues that may come up? I'm not saying this to be snarky, but just to raise the question of whether one should take what amounts to unofficial information and stake your reputation and potentially your job on it.

--
Miles Leacy
Technical Training Manager
Mobile (347) 277-7321

miles at jamfsoftware.com<mailto:miles at jamfsoftware.com>
....................................................................
JAMF Software
1011 Washington Ave. S
Suite 350
Minneapolis, MN 55415
....................................................................
Office: (612) 605-6625
Facsimile: (612) 332-9054
....................................................................
US Support: (612) 216-1296
UK Support +44.(0)20.3002.3907
AU Support +61.(0)2.8014.7469
....................................................................
http://www.jamfsoftware.com<http://www.jamfsoftware.com/>

[noah_swanson]

Sean, We have this same issue right now. Check the following Apple link to see if your iMacs are compatible with the older OS, if not, I'm afraid you may be stuck.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1159

[karthikeyan_mac]

Hi,

The newer iMac has the different Graphics Cards, which will not be supported by Leopard.

Search for the previous thread may help you. 27" iMac shuts off at Netboot

Regards,
Karthikeyan M

[stevewood]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Gallagher, Sean J <gallaghersj at email.chop.edu> wrote: All, I need to install Leopard, on some newer iMac’s

How new are these "newer" iMacs?

, that have Snow Leopard shipped on them. Does anyone know if I create an install image from Disk with InstaDMG, or with Casper, if the information that checks the hardware is stripped out, or ignored? Or

InstaDMG, and I would assume Casper, do not strip anything out. All they do
is create a disk image without having to boot a machine, configure it, and
create an image with Composer (or Disk Utility or your favorite app).

what I would need to do to get leopard on the iMac’s?

Have you simply tried installing Leopard on one of the machines? If the
hardware itself has not changed since SL was released, you most likely will
be able to load L on the machine. Now, I know that there will be several on
this list that point to an Apple KB article that says you should not do
this, but I've done it in the past, and even done it in the current.

When Apple makes a hardware change they generally change the boot code that
is needed to boot a machine. They generally do not update that boot code in
legacy operating systems.

My recommendation would be to try loading Leopard on a machine and see what
you get.

Steve

[karthikeyan_mac]

Hi Steve,

I agree with your words. But in this case, the graphics card for new iMac (21.5 and 27 inch) is different. OS will be installed, but machine freezes at blue screen after the Apple Logo.

Regards,
Karthikeyan

[tlarkin]

I actually have been corresponding with an IT guy in Italy from a forum. I posted on there that I can block copy an image of 10.5.8 on brand new
iMacs and it works flawlessly. He had issues, and certain things would
not work, like adjusting the screen brightness and stuff like that. Come to find out, my iMacs were version 9.1 and his were 10.1 and mine
worked 100% and he had little quirks.

Check out what revision of iMac you have in System Profiler. Also, if
you are feeling a bit daring, you can try to pull out those kext files
for the features that are lacking from a 10.6 installation and put them
in 10.5.8 and see what happens.

-Tom

[martin]

Hi,

The document tells you which version is ships with the product but not if it supports the OS.

We had the same problem with the new MacBook Pro’s. We had a retail DVD of Mac OS X 10.5.0 which didn’t work. We called some suppliers to get the most recent Retail DVD of Mac OS X 10.5 which is 10.5.6. That DVD was hard to get but 10.5.6 (upgrade to 10.5.8) works on the most recent MacBook Pro’s. You can give it a try.

Kind Regards,

Martin van Diemen
t +31 (0)20 5677744

---

G-Star International B.V.
www.g-star.com

[stevewood]

Exactly why I stated that if the machine shipped after 10.6 was released it
is a no go and will not work. However, machines like the MBP laptops and
MacPro that have not been updated since 10.6 was released should work.

Steve Wood
Director of IT
swood at integer.com

The Integer Group | 1999 Bryan St. | Ste. 1700 | Dallas, TX 75201
T 214.758.6813 | F 214.758.6901 | C 940.312.2475
Sent from Dallas, TX, United States

[karthikeyan_mac]

Hi,

iMac(late 2009):- Using the correct Mac OS X system software

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS3101

Regards,
Karthikeyan M

[milesleacy]

As much as I hate to be the party-pooping voice of reason (I really like tinkering with things that shouldn't work too), I feel compelled to comment from a best practices perspective.

It *may* be possible to get Leopard to boot on hardware on which Apple does not support Leopard.

At the risk of being politically incorrect, I place this in the "parlor tricks" category. I would never allow this to be a production configuration in any environment I manage. It's cool if you can get it to work and may even earn a degree of geek cred, but it's still a bad idea to use the resulting system for creating or storing anything that anyone cares about.

Since this OS is not supported by Apple on the hardware, deploying such a system would put the client who receives this system, as well as your own IT team at risk of lost productivity and possibly even lost data with no recourse. Since Apple is never very forthcoming about such things, we don't know what issues may come up in addition to missing hardware support. If the worst occurred and it came out that I had allowed the unsupported configuration that cost my organization lost data/time/opportunity (any of which could theoretically happen solely from the missing hardware support), my job might be on the line and my reputation certainly would. This is not a risk I'd be willing to take.

If I had certain software that wasn't compatible with the new system, and I had to deploy new systems, I'd play a game of "musical computers", reassigning older hardware which supports Leopard to the users who require Leopard, and assigning the Snow Leopard-only hardware to users who don't have the software requirements in question.

This is my personal evaluation of and opinion on the subject and doesn't necessarily reflect an official JAMF position.

--
Miles Leacy
Technical Training Manager
Mobile (347) 277-7321

miles at jamfsoftware.com<mailto:miles at jamfsoftware.com>
....................................................................
JAMF Software
1011 Washington Ave. S
Suite 350
Minneapolis, MN 55415
....................................................................
Office: (612) 605-6625
Facsimile: (612) 332-9054
....................................................................
US Support: (612) 216-1296
UK Support +44.(0)20.3002.3907
AU Support +61.(0)2.8014.7469
....................................................................
http://www.jamfsoftware.com<http://www.jamfsoftware.com/>

[tlarkin]

Well,

The iMacs we bought, versions 9.1, we were told by Apple that they did
actually full support 10.5.8, and would most likely be the last Macs
that would have native support for the OS since there were no hardware
changes when 10.6 came out. Those are the ones we bought, and those are
the ones I have running 10.5.8 (about 600 of them) and I have had zero
problems thus far.

Apple actually told us, it would work, and they knew we needed more
machines and did not want to upgrade so their sales engineers let us
know there were no hardware changes in that model.

Other than that, I tend to agree with Miles, that you are raising the
total cost of ownership by running a non supported OS on your Mac. So,
if you can get a hold of the 9.1 versions they do work and there is no
hardware change and they fully support 10.5.8.

-Tom

[bentoms]

I can see the merits in both arguments...

I've had the threat of some 30 iMacs coming in since November.

All of our file & print is hosted on win servers.. so the issues that seem to plague 10.6 & smb (with office inparticular) look like they may be enough for me to have to try the 'downgrade.'

But I'm hoping that by the time we get the imacs 10.6.3 will be out & all will be good.

If NOT.. it'll be a painful time..

Ben Toms
IT Support Analyst GREY Group
The Johnson Building, 77 Hatton Garden, London, EC1N 8JS
T: +44 (0) 20-3037-3819 |
Main: +44 (0) 20 3037 3000 | IT Helpdesk: +44 (0) 20 3037 3883

[#14]

Tom, thanks for sending me the link. I can see what Miles is saying. I also would move the hardware around, if I could but that is not always feasible, since different departments purchase the hardware. I can not take a new imac away from someone and give them the older one. In many cases people order these machines and either don’t check, or don’t think about the software compatibility issues. I would not normally do this but I am under pressure to get this to work for a short term work around. I have laid the risks out to them, and would not attempt it for production if it was not requested from me.

Sean

[taugust04]

If your iMac listed as "iMac9,1" in the System Profiler, then it can run Leopard 10.5.8. If it's "10,1", it will require Snow Leopard 10.6.1+. 10.5.8 is lacking some video drivers required for the newest ATI Radeon video chipsets present in the newer iMacs.

Apple's policy is that the OS that comes with the computer is the minimum it will run - been that way for over a decade now. Sometimes you'll catch a break where a new operating system is released, but hardware isn't revised, so you get a few months where the shipping hardware will run either system. However, once those revisions are made, that "luxury" ends.

-- Ted August
Salve Regina University

[taugust04]

Let me say that I've already attempted to do this - and after about a day (8 hrs) of working on this, I was unable to get it working. Unless having usable video on the computer is not a requirement (and as in useable video, I mean being able to see anything on the screen besides squiggly colored lines or the kernel panic box), then I would not waste your time on it. The video drivers have separate requirements and dependencies of various levels that Leopard cannot provide support for.

In the past, some models you have been able to do this because it was something simple like a bluetooth or network driver that just needed to be copied in, and the Extensions cache refreshed. Video, however, with all it's complexities, is another story and makes it pretty much impossible.

Your time might be better spent coming up with a workaround for the software that is incompatible with snow leopard.

-- Ted August
Salve Regina University

[lance_ogletree]

As much as I hate to be the party-pooping voice of reason (I really like tinkering with things that shouldn't work too), I feel compelled to comment from a best practices perspective.
On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:13 AM, Miles Leacy wrote:

It *may* be possible to get Leopard to boot on hardware on which Apple does not support Leopard.

At the risk of being politically incorrect, I place this in the "parlor tricks" category. I would never allow this to be a production configuration in any environment I manage. It's cool if you can get it to work and may even earn a degree of geek cred, but it's still a bad idea to use the resulting system for creating or storing anything that anyone cares about.

Since this OS is not supported by Apple on the hardware, deploying such a system would put the client who receives this system, as well as your own IT team at risk of lost productivity and possibly even lost data with no recourse. Since Apple is never very forthcoming about such things, we don't know what issues may come up in addition to missing hardware support. If the worst occurred and it came out that I had allowed the unsupported configuration that cost my organization lost data/time/opportunity (any of which could theoretically happen solely from the missing hardware support), my job might be on the line and my reputation certainly would. This is not a risk I'd be willing to take.

If I had certain software that wasn't compatible with the new system, and I had to deploy new systems, I'd play a game of "musical computers", reassigning older hardware which supports Leopard to the users who require Leopard, and assigning the Snow Leopard-only hardware to users who don't have the software requirements in question.

This is my personal evaluation of and opinion on the subject and doesn't necessarily reflect an official JAMF position.

--
Miles Leacy
Technical Training Manager
Mobile (347) 277-7321

miles at jamfsoftware.com<mailto:miles at jamfsoftware.com>

This has been an interesting thread to follow primarily because it's an issue that will always be with us when Apple releases new hardware outside of their OS updates.
Many times a new point update is released not that long after new hardware to provide a unification of the OS, but that doesn't help if you're needing to get the hardware out to users.

One option that I haven't seen discussed is the use of terminal services for the Mac to help bridge the gap.
AquaConnect provides terminal services for the Mac.
http://www.aquaconnect.net/

While I have not worked with them, nor endorse their product, it might be a consideration for some. This could help provide a bridge for software that hasn't reached compatibility with 10.6

--
Lance Ogletree
Systems Engineer
Mobile: (972) 342-5990
lance.ogletree at jamfsoftware.com<mailto:lance.ogletree at jamfsoftware.com>
....................................................................
JAMF Software
1011 Washington Ave. S
Suite 350
Minneapolis, MN 55415
....................................................................
Office: (612) 605-6625
Facsimile: (612) 332-9054
....................................................................
US Support: (612) 216-1296
....................................................................
http://www.jamfsoftware.com<http://www.jamfsoftware.com/>

[ernstcs]

Yes, Miles has good points. It’s an unfortunate side-effect of using Macs in your environment that you have to deal with; when the new OS comes out the next batch of hardware at or after that OS release will truly on be supported on the latest OS. It’s Apple’s way.

You must always plan before you purchase, at least if you have control over it. Make sure your software and peripherals you depend on for your work are compatible before purchasing. I understand that many of you are not in the position to head off purchases and just get this stuff when it arrives and are told “make it work.”

If possible in your purchasing procedures make sure you folks get involved as a step for anything Apple.

Craig E

[#19]

I Thank you all for your input on this matter. I will relay these collect opinions to the power that be here, and hopefully they will also see the futility in this endeavor.

Sean

[tlarkin]

Well, apple does have it's new licensing program that kind of coincides
with this, but it does force you to upgrade your whole enterprise which
is dumb, in my most humble opinion. However, with the licensing program
they have now (which is an awful a lot like Microsofts) you can pay a
flat rate for so many years of updates.

What sucks is both ATI and Nvidia are very good about constantly
updating their drivers, for all platforms but Mac OS X. Apple is most
likely not allowing them to publish drivers publicly or update them. The hardware did not change all that much, and most likely just needs a
new kernel extension (driver) to fix the issue.

-T

[#21]

Good luck, Sean - I just went through the same thing. We also have some
vital software in use that is not yet 10.6 compatible. I was recently
presented with two 27" iMacs to image - netboot would not take, and a
bit-for-bit copy of the drive image for this department resulted in exactly
what was described here. I went back up the chain & explained that it simply
would not work, and they opted to go ahead with 10.6 in the interim, and
work around whatever was not compatible until the apps get updated (which
really is the only choice they had, save for returning the iMacs &
forgetting about it).

Regards,
Christopher Kemp
BIT Engineer
CNN-BEST Central Engineering