Off topic---What matters more...Certs or a Degree?

[AndyBeaver]

I am pretty new to the industry,(2 years in) and considering pursuing an online degree in IT. As it stands I am in charge of about 11k iOS and Mac OS devices for a school district. I have a number of Apple certs, but just curious to hear from a more seasoned crowd in the enterprise Mac realm.Thank you, and I hope this is not too off topic.

[ClassyLee]

It really depends on what you want to do with your career and where you work. There's a lot of big corporations out there that won't even consider you unless you have a bachelors degree; however, where I work, certs and work experience are worth their weight in gold compared to a degree.

Also, it depends on where you want to go with your future and/or career. Do you want to be a technician/engineer or do you want to try and move into a management position? I could see where additional education (a degree) could help in IT management and related areas, but not so much if you were to stay more on the technical side...for that I'd just stick with keeping current with new technologies and keep getting re-certified

[jarednichols]

The best answer is "it depends." Myself, I got a bachelor's in MIS and it's actually been rather helpful, I think, even though I'm not in management. It's helped me "self mange" with some of the skills I've learned. I've also gotten various certifications along the way (CCA for instance) that help directly with what I'm doing.

I think what often matters more is reputation and your network of professional peers, especially in a small community like IT and even more so in a smaller community like Mac folk in IT. Your name can carry a lot of weight if you gain a reputation as someone who knows what they're doing. Mainly due to my work with Casper at MIT Lincoln Laboratory, I had more than 1 competitor FFRDC cold-call me offering a job and relocation. Apple also extended an offer after a short dance and I turned it down as their paid time off was laughable and non-negotiable. There was also another rather lengthy dance (like on and off for 2 years) performed with a company I won't name. It just didn't work out with timing and positions available and if the right thing came up, I'd still work for them in a second. Eventually, Fidelity came looking for me specifically and I was hired in 8 days. I firmly believe a large driver of that was my reputation and the network of professional peers I've built.

The best job you'll find is the one that isn't advertised. You'll fill someone's need and as such, you'll be in a great position to get what you want under the terms you desire. Build your skills and your reputation and you'll never be out of a job, no matter what the economy.

[AndyBeaver]

Thank you for the response guys.

[wlcasey]

At the risk of offering an opinion that is no longer needed... I have a couple of thoughts on this topic. I spent a lot of time in the educational systems (I have a BA and an MA) and I have been involved in the hiring process (both sides) more times than I care to discuss...more.

1. Watch out how much you spend/borrow for your education. Student debt is relatively easy to come by these days and difficult to pay off. I know people with a very cool degree from a very cool university with a staggeringly huge amount of debt (100k +). Debt like that limits your options going forward. But...make sure that you attend a real university. It needs real credentials and accreditation. When in doubt, call your local state university and ask them how well the credits will transfer. If you just want a bachelors degree from wherever, buy one on the internet.

2. I have been on many hiring committees where candidates get ruled out for a lack of a degree many many times. Lately I have been finding the HR people are doing the screening and they aren't even interested in experience or skills necessarily. They have a checklist and a degree from an accredited university is on it - period.

I have hired people without a degree, against the advice of others, and found it to be a bigger risk. Often with a bigger reward too. The risk is this: if you cant sit still for more than 4 months at time to get through your classes, what are you going to do when management asks you to plan something out that is going to take a year of concerted effort. How are you going to do sticking it out on that Wednesday 7 months in after a month of 50 - 60 hour weeks? Colleges and Universities give their students lots of practice in this regard. There is a socialization element to a university too. I have seen way too many people that were brilliant but they just couldn't play well with others and therefore--they had to go. Most jobs involve lots of team effort. Its just the fact of the matter. The big exception to this rule has been folks that were in the military.

Having said that I have hired people without degrees and spent a lot of time working with them. Several of them had to be fired later because of just crazy behavior and a few have been absolute rock stars in their fields. Its just more of a risk and more work from a management perspective.

1. There is nothing that says you cant do both. Get the certs now and maintain them, but get yourself in the local university and let your degree take a while. You end up with fewer friends at the end, but much better experience and much better at what you do (at work and at school). This approach is cheaper too. Although, if I have to be honest, I think the best thing would be to save up a bunch of cash and get your butt into a University. Being a SysAdmin is cool, but its not the only game in town. You can always be a SysAdmin with a BA/BS/MA/MS/PHD but you cannot get into law school by saying "I administer 11k Macs." So if your young and smart and hungry get some credentials while you can. You get older and married and a house payment and maybe kids and going to get that degree is going to look pretty much impossible. Trust me, I am there now. I could no more go get a bachelors degree now than I could learn to fly by flapping my arms. I am sorry if this advice sounds old fashioned. Also, the hidden upside to this equation is that your undergrad days are pretty much the last time you can get the opportunity to just go see what interests you. You can just go sit in on lectures. Read poetry. Talk to professors about things they are passionate about. Find your passions. That is how you build a career.

Ok, thats a lot of advice that may or may not be worth what you paid. ;-)

[AndyBeaver]

@wlcasey
WOW thank you for the great advice. At this point I am married with two kids and have the mortgage. So it would be a pretty big undertaking to go back to school for me, but again if the value of the degree is such that it would greatly help my career, my family and I are up for the challenge.Right now as it stands we are debt free with the exception of the mortgage, so the idea of student loans scare me. We just paid off nursing school for my wife... From what I gather a degree in IT will definitely not hurt and can open many doors, but certifications and a proven track record are a necessity. I really appreciate your response! Thanks again

[jarednichols]

Yeah to add to Wayne's point #1, I got my BA, but I knew that by going into IT I was going to learn more by doing. Therefore I went to a state school. It's not a terrible school, but it's also not a great school. As a result, I got the piece of paper that says I'm educated and didn't have staggering debt. In fact most of school I paid for by waiting tables and working at Apple.

If you've got the drive and ambition, the lack of a big name school can greatly make up for that. The BA just gets your foot in the door in IT. Nobody really cares what school it is as long as it's not an online degree factory (Read: Phoenix and the ilk)

[colonelpanic]

I'm not sure I have much to add, but wanted to reiterate everything already said, mainly the point about being overlooked without a degree. Unfortunately the person who will actually be interviewing you usually isn't the first person to see your resume, which means the first person to see your resume is just blindly looking for specific generic (what?) things such as a degree in a related field, a certain GPA, and a certain amount of experience.

However, the saying "it's all about who you know" is more true than most people realize. One of my good friends is about to start here and he hasn't even graduated yet, all because I asked my manager if he could come in the building for lunch. We randomly got on a conversation about his experience and before you knew it he was interviewing.

After reading about your situation, I would say certifications would be your best bet if you don't have time because they are better than nothing. I think another big thing to do would be to get your resume out in as many places as possible and get on linked in ASAP if you aren't on there already. LinkedIn can be that connection you have to someone already in a company that you might be interested in, and it is really easy to set up!

[ctangora]

A degree is important (if not required) if you are going to work in higher education. There are colleges/universities that will not hire you unless you have one, as they believe you should understand what the students are doing if you are going to serve them. You may be able to get around it in other industries with a VERY well written cover letter and impressive resume/CV (both in accomplishments and presentation).

What the hiring committee is looking for (when they ask for a degree) is evidence that you can accomplish long term goals and you can communicate effectively (both written and verbal). Your work experience can swap out the training/education requirement for a position, but you need to show them you are well organized and have good time management.

I have been through a number of interviews and jobs in the past decade (currently filing Jared's old role), and have been on a handful of search committees. One of the biggest red flags you can have is starting a degree program and not finishing it. So if you are going to get a degree, you must finish what you start or you are shooting yourself in the foot.

With that said I agree that connections are key. But they only get you in the door. If you can't deliver, no amount of connections will get you a job. You will still have to go through the interview process to get the job.

[jarednichols]

Dude! Hit me off-board.

[bentoms]

This may be different for me as I'm in the UK, BUT honestly experience counts.

I got into IT from being ripped off in the music industry.

10 years in & I have a handful of Certs, but only my CCA has been worth it.

I've paid my dues & worked all hours with all kinds & I think that comes across.

If I'd have done a Computer Science degree I think I would still be where I am now after 10 years, but after having done the degree (so 3-5 years later).

Degree in Computer Music Technology sounds better too. :) (only 6 months as well).

[bentoms]

Forgot to add, the one thing that helped me with getting my current role was my blog http://macmule.com. It's like doing a Maths Exam & showing your working.