10.9.1 not universal, Late 2013 Retina Models build 13B3116

[hkim]

Mavericks is still forked, 10.9.1 for Late 2013 Retina models using 13B3116.

ARGH!

[donmontalvo]

@dwsak][/url][/url We downloaded the machine specific installer on the Late 2013 MacBook Pro Retina. For the non-Retina installer, we used a non-Retina model to do the same. Then it's all AutoDMG...of course the same applies, run it on the MBPr for an image that will work with MBPr, and run it on non-MBPr for an image that will work with all other models.

https://github.com/MagerValp/AutoDMG/releases

FWIW, the MBPr booted all the Macs we tested on (iMac/MP/MBPr/non-MBPr/Macmini) so fine for NBIs and DS Runtime HDs. For those times when "no-image" (or whatever the politically correct term is now for imaging without touching the OS) is not an option, we would deploy MBPr for that model, and the non-MBPr image for all other models.

Don

[dwsak]

@clifhirtle

I have the new hardware (late 2013 MBP Retina), but app store still says that Maverics is does not apply to that hardware. System already has Maverics but I want the installer (installESD) so I can build an image for it. Downloading from the app store works for other models. Up until now I was always building one image for all models, this is the first time I've run into this problem.

Also, FYI, 13B42 is what I have on my test late 2013 MacBookAir and my external drive, it won't book the MBP Retina

[jbyl]

@clifhirtle: No, the MBP (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) shipped with a forked build of 10.9.0 just for that model: 13A3017.

[donmontalvo]

@dwsak][/url][/url I believe you have to first download Mavericks and then that Apple ID should display Mavericks going forward on your other Macs. At least that's been the case here.

EDIT: OK, so it looks like the Install OS X Mavericks.app that was on the newest MBPr was actually c...), the old school way. Thanks Apple.
Don

[dwsak]

@donmontalvo when I try to follow the process in that article you mention, it still won't install. It says 'OS X Mavericks cannot be installed on this computer'. I think there must be 2 separate versions of 'Install OS X Mavericks.app', and I can't seem to get a copy of the one that works for the MBP Retina.

[clifhirtle]

I can confirm what @bkerns noted, that 13B42 upgrades to 13B3116 through SW update. And if what @JPDyson reports about 13B3116 universally booting is correct, the following may be a moot point, however:

I can also confirm that hacking a few VMWare Fusion config files appears to permit faking a late 2013 MacBook Pro enough to nix the need for procuring new hardware every time Apple branches its OS code.

[donmontalvo]

@dwsak Yep I updated my post earlier today. :)

[stefanstefan]

10.9 is fork in two builds for macbook pro retina 13 inch 13A2093 and 15 inch 13A3017.Now is 13B3116 for 13 inch and 15 inch , Apple is advancing

[jbyl]

@donmontalvo: "Since AutoDMG requires the non-existing MBPr Install OS X Mavericks.app,"

Actually, the latest versions of AutoDMG will also take an InstallESD.dmg file instead of an "Install OS X" app. This means that you just need to capture the 13B3116 InstallESD.dmg file from a Retina MBP using Internet Recovery, and then you can use that. Very convenient. (Okay, not very convenient, but it's somewhat more convenient than other methods, like the one that you outlined above.)

@clifhirtle: "hacking a few VMWare Fusion config files appears to permit faking a late 2013 MacBook Pro" – I'd be very interested in learning more about this. Did you use instructions like these? – http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/topic/292170-how-to-spoof-real-mac-in-vmware/

[dwsak]

I also just noticed that Casper Admin won't run on build 13B3116, it says 'requires Mac OS X 10.4 or later'. I guess we're not the only ones blind-sided by the multiple versions of 10.9.1.

Going forward, it sounds like Internet Recovery is going to be the only official way to re-image. I kind of saw this coming but it looks like the new hardware released after 10.9 is Apple's final stake in the ground. I imagine some scientist stuck in a research outpost Antarctica trying to do an internet recovery over some slow satellite connection. I guess they should switch to PCs.

Sounds like I really need to look into AutoDMG, I'm still using Composer. (Supporting Apples is only supposed to be a fraction of my job, I've been trying to just stay with what's worked in the past, not a whole lot of time to explore all the other options...)

[nkalister]

what version of admin is that dwsak? 8.73 is running on 3116 for me, so is 9.22.

[dwsak]

It was 9.22 I had issues with, but I was launching it from an external drive partition with the MBA build of 10.9.1, maybe that had something to do with it? Didn't try installing it locally on the MBPR yet because I'm trying to get out of here for the holidays.

I wish everyone a Happy and Safe Holidays, and thanks for all the help.

[nkalister]

@stefanstefan actually, now that people have review units of the new mac pro, we know that 10.9 was forked THREE ways- the pros ship with 10.9 build 40XX. I can't remember the last digits, but it was definitely a 10.9.0 40xx build in the screenshot that I saw.
Haven't seen any information from the reviews about how that hardware reacts to B42 10.9.1.

[donmontalvo]

@jimblauyale wrote:

Actually, the latest versions of AutoDMG will also take an InstallESD.dmg file instead of an "Install OS X" app.

Well that's a very welcome feature, we'll have to test that out the newst AutoDMG version, thanks!

Don

[clifhirtle]

@jimblauyale][/url][/url that was the start. So far I've restored a RestoreHD from a MBP15 L13 machine to a VM RecoveryHD, modified system properties to feign same MBP15 L13 (late 2013) hardware, booted into RecoveryHD in the VM, and got served OS X 10.9 build 13B42 from Apple Internet Recovery. This does appear to differ from the 13A3017 build that you are showing shipped on these Macs.

And that is interesting, since it means either my hacked VM is not actually fooling Internet Recovery (what I originally thought) or that Apple is actually now default restoring 13B42 to these MBP15 L13s. And since (once 13B42 is installed) I am seeing it pull the model-specific MBP update mentioned above that upgrade the machine to Build 13B3116, I am assuming the VM is at least fooling Apple SW Update.

In any case, Build 13B42 lists the following models within PlatformSupport.plist (again suggesting that this build does in fact replace the original shipping 13A3017 build you note above).

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
    <key>SupportedBoardIds</key>
    <array>
        <string>Mac-031B6874CF7F642A</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268DC8</string>
        <string>Mac-50619A408DB004DA</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218EA9</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D86A9</string>
        <string>Mac-F22C8AC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22586C8</string>
        <string>Mac-AFD8A9D944EA4843</string>
        <string>Mac-942B59F58194171B</string>
        <string>Mac-F226BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-7DF2A3B5E5D671ED</string>
        <string>Mac-35C1E88140C3E6CF</string>
        <string>Mac-942459F5819B171B</string>
        <string>Mac-77EB7D7DAF985301</string>
        <string>Mac-2E6FAB96566FE58C</string>
        <string>Mac-7BA5B2794B2CDB12</string>
        <string>Mac-031AEE4D24BFF0B1</string>
        <string>Mac-00BE6ED71E35EB86</string>
        <string>Mac-4B7AC7E43945597E</string>
        <string>Mac-F22C89C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22587A1</string>
        <string>Mac-F221DCC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F42388C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F223BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F4238CC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F222BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F227BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F2208EC8</string>
        <string>Mac-66F35F19FE2A0D05</string>
        <string>Mac-F4238BC8</string>
        <string>Mac-189A3D4F975D5FFC</string>
        <string>Mac-C08A6BB70A942AC2</string>
        <string>Mac-8ED6AF5B48C039E1</string>
        <string>Mac-F2238AC8</string>
        <string>Mac-FC02E91DDD3FA6A4</string>
        <string>Mac-6F01561E16C75D06</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268EC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22589C8</string>
        <string>Mac-3CBD00234E554E41</string>
        <string>Mac-F22788AA</string>
        <string>Mac-F42C86C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F221BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-942C5DF58193131B</string>
        <string>Mac-F2238BAE</string>
        <string>Mac-F22C86C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268CC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218FC8</string>
        <string>Mac-742912EFDBEE19B3</string>
        <string>Mac-27ADBB7B4CEE8E61</string>
        <string>Mac-F65AE981FFA204ED</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D89C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22587C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D89A9</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268AC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F42C89C8</string>
        <string>Mac-942452F5819B1C1B</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218FA9</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D88C8</string>
        <string>Mac-94245B3640C91C81</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D86C8</string>
        <string>Mac-4BC72D62AD45599E</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268DAE</string>
        <string>Mac-2BD1B31983FE1663</string>
        <string>Mac-7DF21CB3ED6977E5</string>
        <string>Mac-F42C88C8</string>
        <string>Mac-94245A3940C91C80</string>
        <string>Mac-F42386C8</string>
        <string>Mac-C3EC7CD22292981F</string>
        <string>Mac-942B5BF58194151B</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218EC8</string>
    </array>
    <key>SupportedModelProperties</key>
    <array>
        <string>MacBookPro4,1</string>
        <string>Macmini5,3</string>
        <string>Macmini5,2</string>
        <string>Macmini5,1</string>
        <string>iMac10,1</string>
        <string>MacPro4,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,2</string>
        <string>iMac8,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,4</string>
        <string>MacBookAir4,2</string>
        <string>iMac11,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro7,1</string>
        <string>iMac11,3</string>
        <string>MacBookPro8,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro3,1</string>
        <string>iMac13,2</string>
        <string>iMac13,3</string>
        <string>iMac13,1</string>
        <string>iMac9,1</string>
        <string>Macmini3,1</string>
        <string>MacPro5,1</string>
        <string>iMac12,2</string>
        <string>iMac12,1</string>
        <string>MacBook5,1</string>
        <string>MacBook5,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,1</string>
        <string>Macmini6,1</string>
        <string>Macmini6,2</string>
        <string>MacBookAir4,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro11,3</string>
        <string>MacBookPro11,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro11,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro6,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro10,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro10,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,5</string>
        <string>MacBookPro9,2</string>
        <string>iMac11,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro6,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir3,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir3,2</string>
        <string>Macmini4,1</string>
        <string>Xserve3,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir2,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir6,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir6,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro8,1</string>
        <string>MacBook7,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro8,3</string>
        <string>iMac7,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro9,1</string>
        <string>MacBook6,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,3</string>
        <string>MacBookAir5,2</string>
        <string>MacPro3,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir5,1</string>
    </array>
</dict>
</plist>

[rtrouton]

@clifhirtle][/url,

When you booted from your VM's Recovery HD, were you prompted for your Apple ID and password as part of the OS install process?

The reason I ask is that Internet Recovery verifies your serial number to provide the right OS version for your hardware. If it can't verify the serial number (as it won't with a VM, because Apple didn't manufacture the VM's virtual hardware), it'll default to asking for an Apple ID and then download the OS X installer available from the App Store. The App Store build is currently OS X 10.9.1 build 13B42.

If you're getting an update from Software Update, Software Update will check the model information but not verify the serial number with Apple. That may be how you're now getting the 10.9.1 update that installs build 13B3116.

[clifhirtle]

Thanks for the clarification @rtrouton.

Yes, I am getting prompted for my Apple ID, but am also injecting the serial number from an actual MBP15 L13 machine into a custom VMX file to see if it would pull the model-specific InstallESD.

To clarify though the App Store is download 13B42, not 13B3116 (which the VM only updates to via traditional SWUpdate/App Store updater after first reboot).

FWIW, it does report the correct model/machine when I run system_profiler from Terminal in RecoveryHD.

[clifhirtle]

PS: as a basis of comparison, here is the PlatformSupport.plist file from an actual, from-factory 10.9.1-upgraded (13B3116) MBP15 L13 machine:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
    <key>SupportedBoardIds</key>
    <array>
        <string>Mac-031B6874CF7F642A</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268DC8</string>
        <string>Mac-50619A408DB004DA</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218EA9</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D86A9</string>
        <string>Mac-F22C8AC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22586C8</string>
        <string>Mac-AFD8A9D944EA4843</string>
        <string>Mac-942B59F58194171B</string>
        <string>Mac-F226BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-7DF2A3B5E5D671ED</string>
        <string>Mac-35C1E88140C3E6CF</string>
        <string>Mac-942459F5819B171B</string>
        <string>Mac-77EB7D7DAF985301</string>
        <string>Mac-2E6FAB96566FE58C</string>
        <string>Mac-7BA5B2794B2CDB12</string>
        <string>Mac-031AEE4D24BFF0B1</string>
        <string>Mac-00BE6ED71E35EB86</string>
        <string>Mac-4B7AC7E43945597E</string>
        <string>Mac-F22C89C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22587A1</string>
        <string>Mac-F221DCC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F42388C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F223BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F4238CC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F222BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F227BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F2208EC8</string>
        <string>Mac-66F35F19FE2A0D05</string>
        <string>Mac-F4238BC8</string>
        <string>Mac-189A3D4F975D5FFC</string>
        <string>Mac-C08A6BB70A942AC2</string>
        <string>Mac-8ED6AF5B48C039E1</string>
        <string>Mac-F2238AC8</string>
        <string>Mac-FC02E91DDD3FA6A4</string>
        <string>Mac-6F01561E16C75D06</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268EC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22589C8</string>
        <string>Mac-3CBD00234E554E41</string>
        <string>Mac-F22788AA</string>
        <string>Mac-F42C86C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F221BEC8</string>
        <string>Mac-942C5DF58193131B</string>
        <string>Mac-F2238BAE</string>
        <string>Mac-F22C86C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268CC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218FC8</string>
        <string>Mac-742912EFDBEE19B3</string>
        <string>Mac-27ADBB7B4CEE8E61</string>
        <string>Mac-F65AE981FFA204ED</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D89C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F22587C8</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D89A9</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268AC8</string>
        <string>Mac-F42C89C8</string>
        <string>Mac-942452F5819B1C1B</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218FA9</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D88C8</string>
        <string>Mac-94245B3640C91C81</string>
        <string>Mac-F42D86C8</string>
        <string>Mac-4BC72D62AD45599E</string>
        <string>Mac-F2268DAE</string>
        <string>Mac-2BD1B31983FE1663</string>
        <string>Mac-7DF21CB3ED6977E5</string>
        <string>Mac-F42C88C8</string>
        <string>Mac-94245A3940C91C80</string>
        <string>Mac-F42386C8</string>
        <string>Mac-C3EC7CD22292981F</string>
        <string>Mac-942B5BF58194151B</string>
        <string>Mac-F2218EC8</string>
    </array>
    <key>SupportedModelProperties</key>
    <array>
        <string>MacBookPro4,1</string>
        <string>Macmini5,3</string>
        <string>Macmini5,2</string>
        <string>Macmini5,1</string>
        <string>iMac10,1</string>
        <string>MacPro4,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,2</string>
        <string>iMac8,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,4</string>
        <string>MacBookAir4,2</string>
        <string>iMac11,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro7,1</string>
        <string>iMac11,3</string>
        <string>MacBookPro8,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro3,1</string>
        <string>iMac13,2</string>
        <string>iMac13,3</string>
        <string>iMac13,1</string>
        <string>iMac9,1</string>
        <string>Macmini3,1</string>
        <string>MacPro5,1</string>
        <string>iMac12,2</string>
        <string>iMac12,1</string>
        <string>MacBook5,1</string>
        <string>MacBook5,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,1</string>
        <string>Macmini6,1</string>
        <string>Macmini6,2</string>
        <string>MacBookAir4,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro11,3</string>
        <string>MacBookPro11,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro11,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro6,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro10,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro10,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,5</string>
        <string>MacBookPro9,2</string>
        <string>iMac11,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro6,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir3,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir3,2</string>
        <string>Macmini4,1</string>
        <string>Xserve3,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir2,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir6,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir6,2</string>
        <string>MacBookPro8,1</string>
        <string>MacBook7,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro8,3</string>
        <string>iMac7,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro9,1</string>
        <string>MacBook6,1</string>
        <string>MacBookPro5,3</string>
        <string>MacBookAir5,2</string>
        <string>MacPro3,1</string>
        <string>MacBookAir5,1</string>
    </array>
</dict>
</plist>

[gachowski]

So, I can't quite make a netboot image with 13B3116 that boots everything. I have tested that my "image" will boot the all the hardware, but after I run System Image Utility and upload the nib it won't boot 2011 airs or MBPs. Any ideas?

Thanks

C

[donmontalvo]

@gachowski wrote:

So, I can't quite make a netboot image with 13B3116 that boots everything.

Did you create the NBI on a Late 2013 MBPr?

[gachowski]

Yep, I have tried hosting the NBI on a different server. I have tried using the 2011air as the master, but that won't boot anything with a HD, but will boot all "SSD" mac... I am kinda all over the place : )

C

[Lotusshaney]

I had a look at this I'm as far as the hd/ssd boot thing it looks like it's the kextcache in the x86_64 folder of the nib folder made by the system image utility. If I replace this with the kextcache from the running os on the hd used to pull the image from it will then boot but finder fails to load.

I'm guessing a kext is missing from the cache

[Lotusshaney]

I had a look at this I'm as far as the hd/ssd boot thing it looks like it's the kextcache in the x86_64 folder of the nib folder made by the system image utility. If I replace this with the kextcache from the running os on the hd used to pull the image from it will then boot but finder fails to load.

I'm guessing a kext is missing from the cache

[donmontalvo]

We tested and found the same problem, 13B3116 isn't booting the latest MBA models.

We're creating an NBI for the MBA until Apple un-forks 10.9.

[Kumarasinghe]

I have managed to get 10.9.1 (13B4116) NetBoot set created and working fine on all the models we have tested.
Followed @bkerns][/url method to get the base version updated.

Used AutoDMG and created the OS installer on a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) by;
1) Download 10.9.1 Installer from App Store as the base
2) Download the Retina MBP update and include it as Additional Package 1 (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1712)
3) Download the 2013 Mac Pro update and include it as Additional Package 2 (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1707)

Successfully tested on;
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013)
MacBook Air (13-inch Mid 2012)
iMac 13,1
iMac 13,2

[donmontalvo]

@Kumarasinghe Interesting, I read somewhere...cough, cough...that using the latest seed during those forked-by-Apple periods works too. :)

@mm2270 wrote:

I've given up on Apple. I'm becoming convinced they keep the OS forked to annoy us, but would never admit it.

I'm more inclined to blame the fact that Apple is offshoring more and more of their OS X patch development, that the lack of oversight (anyone who's ever worked with offshore resources would know) and complete lack of accountability (those to blame are shielded) is cheaper than getting it right (think profits). ;)

http://bit.ly/1fy7Mf9

[Lotusshaney]

Ok think I have sorted it. TFTP original file limits is 32MB. I think new models have removed this limit in there firmware. All my old NB images kernalcache files are under that size.

10.9.x ones are 35MB so won't TFTP to the older macs. If I remove unused kexts and build the image the kernalcache is under 32MB and EVERYTHING boots !!!!

I think apple needs to look at system image utility and make it more selective on needed kexts

[jthurwood]

I have attempted to create a Netboot image of the latest Retina MacBook Pro for use with our internal NETSUS server.
I have uploaded the set but am unable to boot up from it, even with the same MBPr I created it from.

Iv'e used the latest version of SIU from Mavericks Server 10.9.1(Same OS as machine), i really am stuck on what to try next!

[donmontalvo]

@jthurwood][/url What are you seeing when you try to NetBoot? Are you using the OS's /System/Library/CoreServices/System Image Utility.app on an alternate partition on the MacBook Pro Retina you're creating your NBI on?

[jthurwood]

@donmontalvoI ether get the no entry sign or it continues to boot into the pre installed OS

[jthurwood]

I used SIU from the Server.app tools menu.

The machine was connected to another identical MBPr using a Thunderbolt cable.

Thanks

Joe

[donmontalvo]

@jthurwood That should work...hmmm, just curious, do you through all three stages and then it fails?

external image link

[jthurwood]

No it does not get passed the first stage.

When the machines are connected together and the machine i took the Netboot image from is in TDM i can successfully boot from it, it only when its uploaded to NETSUS that it fails.

[Lotusshaney]

Have you turned on verbose boot to see what is happening ?

http://blog.designed79.co.uk/?p=1784

[donmontalvo]

I believe the large flashing globe is the Mac looking for NetBoot servers. The second smaller rotating globe is the Mac loading the NBI. The spinning cog is the Mac booting from the NBI. If the MBPr isn't finding the NetBoot servers, maybe try restarting the service (or rebooting the server)?

[jthurwood]

Ive given the NETSUS server a restart, still no joy. This is the 3rd MBPr i have built now and it's failed every time. Do you have to do something special with the Network Preferences before you make the NBI on MBPr?

[donmontalvo]

@jthurwood Have you tried holding the OPTION key and selecting the NBI?

[jthurwood]

When i select the option key Faux Netboot is listed, when i click on it it shows the Apple logo and boots to the Internal HD.

[donmontalvo]

@jthurwood Ahh...maybe start a new thread using the NetSUS tag? I only stumbled onto this thread since I was subscribed. I usually search for tag. :)

[stevewood]

Are the NETSUS server and the MBP on the same VLAN? Same IP range? If they are not on same VLAN then you'll need IP Helpers in place on the switch.

Can you NetBoot any other devices using any other NBI sets from that NETSUS?

You mentioned using SIU from a 10.9.1 Server. Have you tried hosting the NBI on that 10.9.1 server temporarily to make sure the NBI is good? I'd put the client and that server on the same subnet, heck the same switch if possible, and try getting the machine to netboot from there. At least you'd be able to tell if the NBI is working.