casper community site

[rockpapergoat]

just glanced at some of the postings about setting up a community site, so pardon me if you've already discussed this.

why not setup a google code project or use github? both are free, have wikis, and support both ticketing/bug reporting and version control.

it doesn't have to be based on a cms. a resource that integrates with git would be ideal, as that's what i use to version and manage all my other code and writing.

[rockpapergoat]

oh, and for forum access, why not ask the afp548.com guys to add a section in their existing forum?

use the related resources at hand, no?

likewise, if jamf has something in the works, it would be better for everyone to be open about rather than waiting around for some official release.

for community shared documentation and source code, there's not much sense in waiting for a vendor in this case unless their offering blows the doors off services that already exist.

[rockpapergoat]

while on the topic, does anyone else find the mailing list digests and web interface nearly unusable?

part of my annoyance with both is people's tendency to include all previous messages in a reply, so it's impossible to discern new posts from old.

the other is lack of line wrapping in either digest or web views.

email is not the place to store and share this type of knowledge.

[tlarkin]

I've been using Casper since version 5 and joined the mailing list when I first got into Casper. Which was about 4 years ago. I have kept every email since then in it's own folder from the Casper list so I can search them for ideas, advice, and how to information. I have 8,175 email messages. Though to be honest, I also like keeping to the see what I and others post about certain topics as well.

I would prefer to not use email, and to use a web site. It doesn't have to be a CMS, but a CMS is nice for the blog-like articles which really do look better than a wiki or a forum. That is just my opinion.

[zach]

Hey everyone-

We are certainly aware of the limitations and the frustrations that come with using the list serve technology. We also see some value to the technology for a community of our size. The post from Jared Nichols earlier today regarding his experience moving when a list serve to a forum sums up our concerns perfectly. While the medium that the information is transferred with leaves quite a bit to be desired, the amount of communication that happens is incredible.

Over the last year, we have spent quite a bit of time and energy gathering requirements and desires for community software, and are currently in the first stages of putting this together. We're hoping that this can provide a hybrid of the list serve and forum software, as well as many new features that will benefit the community. While I don't have an exact timeframe for this, please know that it is underway.

If anybody has questions or concerns about this, please feel free to contact me directly off list.

regards,
zach

[donmontalvo]

vBulletin is powerful and almost free...most of the forums I'm on run on it, and it's nearly the de-facto forum software out there. I for one would love to see the end of the Digest madness (folks posting formatted text, folks posting attachments, folks quoting thousands of lines of unnecessary text, etc.). Let JAMF appoint moderators (or hold a vote?). Let folks give each other points (I know Craig, Steve, Thomas, etc would get a lot of points quickly). Let folks set up their profiles with mugshot. Attachments won't be an issue anymore. And you can always link a Wiki to it...

Email just isn't the way to go anymore. Not unless the list can restrict formatted text, attachments, endless quotes...

Don

[fsjjeff]

I'm very curious - why would anyone even using digest anymore? I mean, this is 2011, and multi GB GMail accounts (or yahoo or hotmail) are available for free, with great "conversation," sorting and search features. If you're worried about the volume of email from the list why wouldn't you just grab a Gmail account for your lists. So much easier, everything is sorted nicely and easy to grab what you want.

Personally, I have a gmail account just for list subscriptions - each one has auto-sort rules to put the different lists in 'folders'. I then subscribe via IMAP from my different computers. So easy, and if I read something it shows up as read everywhere, same if I email anything in. It's also nicely siphoned off from other email.

I can see value to a forum, especially for more article/authoritative type information, but quite frankly I like the push aspect of the list, as well as the more informal style.

Jeff

[jszaszvari]

How about a Community Wiki?

-J

[jszaszvari]

Sorry let me clarify, A Wiki to compliment the Mailing list.

I don't think it needs to be a full forum, But a wiki that we could direct people too/Add valuable info would be great.

Theres a lot of scripts and tips that get sent around here that would be really nice sitting on a wiki.

-J

[RobertHammen]

+1. I have a lot of experience with vBulletin as both a supermod and Admin. It's a nice, fast, flexible BBS system with extendability (2 of the 3 sites I've helped manage are car-related, and there were plugins for member's garage, engine/trans tunes, et. al.). Only thing I don't know is if the email options are flexible enough to be an exact duplication of what you can get with the list. You can certainly auto-subscribe to receive notifications of new threads posted in certain forums (not necessarily the thread content, just the title); and, if you've posted a message in a thread, you can automatically receive any responses emailed to you... not sure if you can completely replace the digest functionality with vBulletin, although I've been away from it for almost a year...
On Feb 26, 2011, at 11:10 PM, Don Montalvo wrote:

--Robert

[#11]

Why digest? Because I already slog through thousands of emails per week; also, I really don't want ANOTHER email account to check along with my business and personal emails.

Why not a wiki? Because they don't lend themselves to conversation and are a pain in the rear to maintain.

Christopher Kemp
CNN-BEST Central Engineering

This message was mangled by my iPhone's spleen checker.

[#12]

If you don't contribute to a wiki, you don't have to worry about maintaining it. Conversation would still happen on this mailing list; the wiki would be for those who want a reference, not a conversation. I suspect quite a few of us fall into that category.

If you're getting thousands of emails per week, you should almost certainly be filtering them. I probably get about that many, but I send most of them to a folder that I never look at.

[CasperSally]

+1 for forum over a wiki

[jszaszvari]

+1 for discussion forum as well as a Wiki as a community Knowledge base that we can link to from inside the forum.

Just have to wait and see what this JAMF community is like that they are working on.

-J

[tlarkin]

You can have both. Forums can send out emails to mailing lists, they have subscription options, you can receive them in digests. Why do people fear change so much? The mailing list, in all honesty, is really not that efficient for sharing and collaborating in comparison to a site driven product, ie - wiki, forum, blogs, etc. I cannot post pictures and add in code blocks for scripts in a mailing list. Also, searching through a mailing list archive is just painful sometimes.

Web based stuff can be edited as well, emails cannot once they have been sent.

I just today on my lunch break added an article to the wiki on tweaking your JSS by the way.

just my 2 cents

-Tom

[#16]

Oh yeah, I forgot about JAMF's knowledge base. Probably because I don't find it relevant. It's so sparse...

If we could edit that, we might not need a wiki.

[John_Wetter]

Well said Bill.

I for one would like to see the community council idea Bill describes. For
the actual list/forum/whatever, I think a mail-enabled forum is the best way
to go.

John
-- John Wetter
Technical Services Manager
Educational Technology, Media & Information Services
Hopkins Public Schools
952-988-5373

[ernstcs]

DING!

And as long as the tool allows for me being blasted with emails for
everything posted to a "site" , and others who do not, I'm fine with that.
I want the messages in my face because I do NOT have the drive to force
myself to go check the "site".

Craig E

[#19]

+1 for a forum from me too.

For someone who only uses Casper occasionally the listserv is really not a
helpful way to organise the community support.

(I can understand that those here who use Casper a lot every day might like
the constant feed of information, most forums support email subscription
updates that achieve the same effect?)

John Pearse
--

Assael Architecture Limited, Studio 13, 50 Carnwath Road, London SW6 3EG,
United Kingdom.
T: +44 (0)20 7736 7744 F: +44 (0)20 7736 6677

[localhorst]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

somehow this discussion is a déjà vu as it comes up every 4-6 months on
this mailing list.

On 28/02/11 23:00, John J. Szaszvari wrote: +1 for discussion forum as well as a Wiki as a community Knowledge base that we can link to from inside the forum.

I think a mailing list is more appropriate for IT professionals because
we all live on mail and most of us would not check a web forum as
frequent as mail.

IMHO a wiki to complement the mailing lists would be perfect.

Just have to wait and see what this JAMF community is like that they are working on.

I also read quite often that JAMF is working on some kind of community
portal, but I think we should not wait and start something right now.

I created an new Wiki on Wikia and would like to invite everyone to join
and share knowledge and information. In case someone wants to take
ownership of forums, Wikia offers this feature two. In case JAMF comes
up with a better solution I am sure we will be able to migrate the
content to their system.

The wiki is located at http://caspersuite.wikia.com/
and to get it started I wrote an article how to migrate your JSS
database to an external database server: http://caspersuite.wikia.com/wiki/JSS_using_an_external_Database

Regards,
Marko

- --

Marko Jung
NSMS - Oxford University Computing Services
http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/nsms

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: No legal relevance

iEYEARECAAYFAk1s+iMACgkQrews0RqVN+dKSQCfdo7ZDE6fztVKbOMeDJ0/+Hsv
2tQAoIQhBpFzPLbDTogadxqU9a5EXJCf
=iUeq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[talkingmoose]

Yes, it does, doesn't it? :-)
On 3/1/11 7:52 AM, "Marko Jung" <marko.jung at oucs.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

I'll add my vote to keeping the mailing list. For now. Here's why:

We all agree we need a method of communicating with each other within the
Casper community or else we wouldn't be here. Folks are only arguing
"how". Fair to say that no one solution will appease everyone.

Mailings lists are simple, which is what I personally like. The messages
come to my inbox. I don't have to make a concerted effort to visit a
website and read what's new. The time I save from that alone is worth a
mailing list to me.

Yes, forums can do all sorts of subscriptions and automated E-mails... if
they're set up to do so. OK, so what does it take to do that? First,
everybody will want to chime in on what the forum will do and how it will
work. They'll suggest server software they've seen or heard about, maybe
even tried. Then several folks will "volunteer" to get it set up. Then, if
that ever happens, some folks won't like it and will continue suggesting
something different.

The mailing list is a service of JAMF. It's already here and it works. If
anyone is going to create a forum then let it be JAMF. Great intentions
need someone to drive them. Without that nothing gets accomplished. We all
like the dream of being the guy who sets up a server and watches everyone
flock to it, but driving the community to that server takes a lot more
time and effort than folks realize. Getting them to stay, utilize and even
contribute to it takes even more. Case in point: MacEnterprise.org
<http://www.macenterprise.org/announcements/futureofmacenterpriseorg>.

I would actually propose that JAMF instead create something like a
"community council", which would be representative of the JAMF community.
Let this group help guide JAMF in what it should do. I'm all for the
community taking the initiative and doing things itself but without
someone really driving that effort and evangelizing over and over that
this second community even exists then it'll be a futile endeavor.

And we'll be back here on the list again in six months doomed to repeat
this conversation.

--

William Smith
Technical Analyst
Merrill Communications LLC
(651) 632-1492

[#22]

I don't think anyone is advocating getting rid of this list (at least I hope not). But the list should not be the only way to get this information, nor (necessarily) the best way. The list is great for what it does: it provides existing admins a place to collect knowledge. But any new community member (like me) is not going to ask every newbie question they have to the whole list; that's a recipe for severe repetition. Thus, a place to direct new members to to learn how things work is a good idea. The big question, then, is what type of site that should be. With a goal of making the information easily accessible to new members, a forum is probably not the best way to achieve it. A wiki seems to be a good choice: repetition is kept to a minimum, as is extraneous information. The information can be structured in a way that makes it easy to follow. And it doesn't need much maintenance once established.

To sum it all up:
Know your audience(s), and know when there's more than one.

[#23]

It looks like Marko and I have been the only contributors thus far. Anyone else wanna take a crack at it? If you're looking for a place to get started, click Random Page, then look for the red links. Click one of those links to create the page. Or you can edit one of the existing pages.

[talkingmoose]

I'm not sure what folks are advocating but we need to make sure we're not
On 3/1/11 12:22 PM, "Urban, Benjamin Mark" <BUrban at imf.org> wrote:
fracturing the existing community. All of our knowledge and interaction in
one place is better than half in two places. That's the risk that having a
list *and* a forum creates.

So, if no one's said it yet then I will: Let's have either a mailing list
*or* a forum but not both. Again, I prefer a mailing list. I'm not saying
I won't use a forum but rather I'll just be less likely because of the
convenience factor.

Regarding wikis and such...

JAMF has a knowledge base. Is it a wiki where the rest of us can freely
contribute? No.

Question: What are folks saying is wrong with the knowledge base when they
bring up a wiki or other content management type system?

Answer: Folks want to be able to contribute to it. And rightly so!

Rather than proposing a new tool, why don't we ask JAMF to give us a way
to contribute to their knowledge base so that we can keep all content in
one location? That sounds like what Zach is proposing. We just probably
need to tell them as a community that this needs to be a higher priority.

--

William Smith
Technical Analyst
Merrill Communications LLC
(651) 632-1492

[#25]

For the record, I am hoping that JAMF takes this up. That's why I submitted
it to them as a formal request. A community-driven site is fine, but there
is no guarantee that it would be maintained in the long term. Having JAMF
maintain the site would presumably keep it going as long as they are in
business, and hopefully some of their staff would chime in when necessary.

I have no desire to kill the mailing list but it is unusable for me the way
it is, and I intend to drop it very soon because the benefit I get from it
does not warrant the time it takes to go through these emails. Filters, etc.
are great, and I use them extensively ­ however, that does not change the
fact that I have to actually read many of the emails that come my way so
that I can know what is going on around me.

Being a veteran of many forums, checking a website does not seem extremely
cumbersome for someone who spends the majority of their day in front of a
computer (and if I'm not in front of my computer then I'm probably too busy
with the physical plant to read emails anyway). I would welcome the ability
to view and search only conversations that I'm interested in without having
to parse hundreds of lines of useless info trying to follow a conversation.

Christopher Kemp
CNN-BEST Central Engineering

[donmontalvo]

I'd be happier than a pig in $h!t if JAMF moves the list over to a vBulletin, phpBB, Drupal, etc., message board. And if it makes sense to link to a Wiki, fine!

No offense to the usual selfless, helpful list members (Steve, Craig, Tom, Jared, William, Ben, the JAMF engineers, etc.) who give so much on the list...or to the folks who attach, quote, etc...just wanted to chime in that the usability of the Digest mode really *does* matter. When we're unable to get in and get out quickly and effectively, it's a clear indicator that something isn't right, and it's time for a fix.

No other Mailman listserv I'm on has these problems. The list mom sets the rules, and everybody plays along. Plain text, no attachments, trim your quotes...everyone is happy.

A forum would suit me just fine, so I can set the thread display to nestled and be done with it...get in, get out, done.

Don

[#27]

I'll help moderate. As my knowledge improves (thanks to this list), I
can also write some blog articles.

Loving Casper 8 and iOS MDM!

Damien Barrett
System Technician
Montclair Kimberley Academy
Montclair, NJ 07042
973-842-2812

[bentoms]

Same boat as you Criss.

But, sometimes it does help to have others not across the pond moderating.

Besides... We could gang up on Cem. :P

Regards,

Ben.

[Bukira]

True, always happy to help and share articles and others articles as that's what I miss, real world examples and practices, as we all do things differently but it helps to learn how others do

Criss Myers

[Matt]

Ok, I bit the bullet.

http://casperadmins.com

Ill have it set up in a few days. I have experience in forums (having had a few successful ones.) If anyone here is willing to be a moderator please let me know and we can chat.!

--
Matt Lee
FNG Sr. IT Analyst / Desktop Architecture Team / Apple S.M.E / JAMF Casper Administrator
Fox Networks Group
matthew.lee at fox.com<mailto:matthew.lee at fox.com>

Need Help? Call the Help Desk at (310) 969-HELP (ext 24357) or online at http://itteam<http://itteam/>
Help Desk Hours: Mon-Fri, 6AM-6PM PST

[tlarkin]

I'd like to moderate, and I would also like to contribute some blog style articles with tips and tricks using Casper.

[Kedgar]

I've been looking forward to something like this for a while. This is one of the best communities I've been involved in, and a mailing list is not the right venue in my opinion. I don't think I have enough time to dedicate to be a moderator, but I'll plan on contributing what I can.

-Ken

Sent from my iPad

[Bukira]

I'll contribute but due to time zone
Differences I'm probably not good to moderate

Criss Myers

[ernstcs]

That's ok…moderation is good in moderation…

[bentoms]

Yep.

Your old mactech article on Casper has helped me before!

Regards,

Ben.

[Matt]

I got the basic site up. www.casperadmins.com<http://www.casperadmins.com>.

Any feedback on adding discussion forums please let me know! Its a start!

--
Matt Lee
FNG Sr. IT Analyst / Desktop Architecture Team
Fox Networks Group
matthew.lee at fox.com<mailto:matthew.lee at fox.com>

Need Help? Call the Help Desk at (310) 969-HELP (ext 24357) or online at http://itteam<http://itteam/>
Help Desk Hours: Mon-Fri, 6AM-6PM PST

[jszaszvari]

Is there KB/Wiki for scripts and other useful info so it can be stored separate to the discussions?
It's a bit hard every time a thread comes up to track down another thread with the small script you need in it, instead there needs to be somewhere to reference them from.

Also I assume this isn't associated with the official JAMF community they are launching within the month?

J

[Bukira]

Sorry discussion are not good for me, we have them here, we need a
repository for scripts and articles etc, not just discussions, hopefully
JAMF will bring us a perfect service,

good luck with the site thou, nice work :-)

Criss Myers
Senior IT Analyst (Mac Services)
iPhone / iPad Developer
Apple Certified Technical Coordinator v10.5
LIS Development
Software Management Team
Adelphi Building AB28
University of Central Lancashire
Preston PR1 2HE
Ex 5050
01772 895050

[Cem]

I rather stick with Jamf solution instead of reinventing the wheel.

We all here on this list because of JamfSoftware in the first place. We shouldn't forget that...

Also they are monitoring this list as it helps them to help us.

Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:10:16 +0000

[jarednichols]

Guys-

Hold up. Don't waste too much effort on these community sites. I got back from Minneapolis last week and can say with authority, "hold up and wait."

Sorry it's cryptic and void of details but I can't (and won't) go into details.

j
--
Jared F. Nichols
Desktop Engineer, Client Services
Information Services Department
MIT Lincoln Laboratory
244 Wood Street
Lexington, Massachusetts 02420
781.981.5436